Dionysus El Elyon and Zeus Baal Shamen

[Dom]

Is there any validity to the following, which was posted by
"Agamemnon" at:

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.history.ancient/msg/d99e4b6a9deec2f0?

=================

There were no such things a Orthodox Jews at the time of the
Maccabbees. Orthodox Judaism was invented in the middle ages. At the
time of the Maccabbees the Jews were polytheistic and always hade been
and two main factions of Jews dominated both of which wanted to
control the temple. One faction worshiped Baal Shamen who they
identified with Zeus (who was also syncretised with Zeus Belus or
Dushara in Arabic, the son of El) whereas another faction worshiped
Elyon his father who was syncretised with El (Alohi in Hebrew or Allah
in Arabic and referred to as Orotalt by Herodotus) who was identified
by the Jews with Dionysus.

The Jews who worshiped Dionysus El Elyon were allied with the
Ptolemaic Egyptians and were admitted into the mysteries and branded
with the Ivy Leaf symbol of Dionysus. Those that supported the claim
of Zeus Baal Shamen to the temple worshiped were allied with the
Seleucids. The temple was in fact original the temple of Elyon and
Judas Maccabbee led the Jews that worshiped Dionysus to retake if from
those that wanted to worship Baal Shamen there instead. From the First
Book of Maccabbees we know that when Judas finally capture the temple
he celebrated by worshiping Elyon by waving wands covered with ivy,
which of course was the Thyrsus as carried by Dionysus and his
followers.

[Agamemnon]

Post by Dom
Is there any validity to the following, which was posted by

Yes there is. Read the first two books of Maccabbees, Eusebius Preparation
for the Gospel book 1 and the Bible in Hebrew where all the different Gods
the "Jews" worshiped are named individually.

http://www.argyrou.eclipse.co.uk/myths/bible/History.htm

Post by Dom
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.history.ancient/msg/d99e4b6a9deec2f0?
=================
There were no such things a Orthodox Jews at the time of the
Maccabbees. Orthodox Judaism was invented in the middle ages. At the
time of the Maccabbees the Jews were polytheistic and always hade been
and two main factions of Jews dominated both of which wanted to
control the temple. One faction worshiped Baal Shamen who they
identified with Zeus (who was also syncretised with Zeus Belus or
Dushara in Arabic, the son of El) whereas another faction worshiped
Elyon his father who was syncretised with El (Alohi in Hebrew or Allah
in Arabic and referred to as Orotalt by Herodotus) who was identified
by the Jews with Dionysus.
The Jews who worshiped Dionysus El Elyon were allied with the
Ptolemaic Egyptians and were admitted into the mysteries and branded
with the Ivy Leaf symbol of Dionysus. Those that supported the claim
of Zeus Baal Shamen to the temple worshiped were allied with the
Seleucids. The temple was in fact original the temple of Elyon and
Judas Maccabbee led the Jews that worshiped Dionysus to retake if from
those that wanted to worship Baal Shamen there instead. From the First
Book of Maccabbees we know that when Judas finally capture the temple
he celebrated by worshiping Elyon by waving wands covered with ivy,
which of course was the Thyrsus as carried by Dionysus and his
followers.

[Matt Giwer]

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Dom
Is there any validity to the following, which was posted by

Yes there is. Read the first two books of Maccabbees, Eusebius
Preparation for the Gospel book 1 and the Bible in Hebrew where all the
different Gods the "Jews" worshiped are named individually.

But now that this clown has brought it up, and I always appreciate the help of
the believers, what real evidence do we have that they were trying to get
converts? I have assumed it without evidence other than a passing suggestion
that the Jews in Baghdad said to stop but that doesn't mean much. We have no
other mention of it. We have no idea how far their ruling could extend if it
extended beyond Baghdad at all. Which means it might have been a local idea that
failed.

But I did find that the huge number of Jews outside of Judea is "explained" by
assuming they were not only seeking but getting converts. But the huge number
comes from Josephus who never found a number small enough. The Jewish Quarter of
Alexandria does not mean 1/4. It derives from the meaning as in military quarters.

And then the rationalization of getting converts was that Judaism appealed to
the ruling class. They did all the writing. There is no evidence of it. And the
ruling class were the most indulgent. That they would take on the anti-Greek,
anti-learning ritual/taboo life of a Jew is absurd in addition to no mention of
it. There is no reason the early Christians would have expunged mention of it as
they would have simply spun it as conversion to Judaism and the acceptance of
the Christ. They would not have needed to create the Acts story about Paul
de-judaizing the Christ. Also this does not explain the huge numbers Josephus
claimed as to get so many they could not be just the ruling class.

So have you come across any clear claim of early attempts and success at
conversion in any form that can test tested? I can't think of a thing.

[SolomonW]

Post by Dom
Is there any validity to the following, which was posted by
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.history.ancient/msg/d99e4b6a9deec2f0?
=================
There were no such things a Orthodox Jews at the time of the
Maccabbees. Orthodox Judaism was invented in the middle ages. At the
time of the Maccabbees the Jews were polytheistic and always hade been
and two main factions of Jews dominated both of which wanted to
control the temple. One faction worshiped Baal Shamen who they
identified with Zeus (who was also syncretised with Zeus Belus or
Dushara in Arabic, the son of El) whereas another faction worshiped
Elyon his father who was syncretised with El (Alohi in Hebrew or Allah
in Arabic and referred to as Orotalt by Herodotus) who was identified
by the Jews with Dionysus.
The Jews who worshiped Dionysus El Elyon were allied with the
Ptolemaic Egyptians and were admitted into the mysteries and branded
with the Ivy Leaf symbol of Dionysus. Those that supported the claim
of Zeus Baal Shamen to the temple worshiped were allied with the
Seleucids. The temple was in fact original the temple of Elyon and
Judas Maccabbee led the Jews that worshiped Dionysus to retake if from
those that wanted to worship Baal Shamen there instead. From the First
Book of Maccabbees we know that when Judas finally capture the temple
he celebrated by worshiping Elyon by waving wands covered with ivy,
which of course was the Thyrsus as carried by Dionysus and his
followers.

Very little.

In June 1986 archaeologists of Tel Aviv University announced discovery
of two small silver scolls or amulets. These two silver scrolls were
found in 1979 deep inside a burial cave at a site known as Ketef Hinnom,
west of the old city of Jerusalem. They were hidden at the back of the
tomb embedded in pottery fashioned as early as the seventh century BC.
Seven years later the fragile silver scrolls were opened and their texts
deciphered. The silver scrolls contain an excerpt from Numbers 6:24-26,
also known as the Priestly Benediction. In English the verses read: =3FThe
LORD bless you and keep you; The LORD make His face shine upon you, And
be gracious to you; The LORD lift up His countenance upon you, And give
you peace.=3F On the scrolls we find the texts:

Amulet 1: concluding benediction (lines 14=3F19):

=3F[=3F] May Yahweh bless you [and] keep you. May Yahweh cause his face to
shine [on you] =3F].=3F

Amulet 2: benediction (lines 5=3F12):

=3F[=3F] May Yahweh bless you and keep you. May Yahweh cause his face to
shine [on] you and give you peace [=3F].=3F

The location of the find of the silver scrolls and analysis of the
Hebrew on the scrolls confirm a date close to 600 BCE, perhaps earlier =3F
long before the capture of Jerusalem and the Babylonian exile.

They were Monothesist back in the 600 BCE long before these events that
Agamemnon wrote above.

[Martin Edwards]

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
Is there any validity to the following, which was posted by
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.history.ancient/msg/d99e4b6a9deec2f0?
=================
There were no such things a Orthodox Jews at the time of the
Maccabbees. Orthodox Judaism was invented in the middle ages. At the
time of the Maccabbees the Jews were polytheistic and always hade been
and two main factions of Jews dominated both of which wanted to
control the temple. One faction worshiped Baal Shamen who they
identified with Zeus (who was also syncretised with Zeus Belus or
Dushara in Arabic, the son of El) whereas another faction worshiped
Elyon his father who was syncretised with El (Alohi in Hebrew or Allah
in Arabic and referred to as Orotalt by Herodotus) who was identified
by the Jews with Dionysus.
The Jews who worshiped Dionysus El Elyon were allied with the
Ptolemaic Egyptians and were admitted into the mysteries and branded
with the Ivy Leaf symbol of Dionysus. Those that supported the claim
of Zeus Baal Shamen to the temple worshiped were allied with the
Seleucids. The temple was in fact original the temple of Elyon and
Judas Maccabbee led the Jews that worshiped Dionysus to retake if from
those that wanted to worship Baal Shamen there instead. From the First
Book of Maccabbees we know that when Judas finally capture the temple
he celebrated by worshiping Elyon by waving wands covered with ivy,
which of course was the Thyrsus as carried by Dionysus and his
followers.

Very little.
In June 1986 archaeologists of Tel Aviv University announced discovery
of two small silver scolls or amulets. These two silver scrolls were
found in 1979 deep inside a burial cave at a site known as Ketef Hinnom,
west of the old city of Jerusalem. They were hidden at the back of the
tomb embedded in pottery fashioned as early as the seventh century BC.
Seven years later the fragile silver scrolls were opened and their texts
deciphered. The silver scrolls contain an excerpt from Numbers 6:24-26,
also known as the Priestly Benediction. In English the verses read: =3FThe
LORD bless you and keep you; The LORD make His face shine upon you, And
be gracious to you; The LORD lift up His countenance upon you, And give
=3F[=3F] May Yahweh bless you [and] keep you. May Yahweh cause his face to
shine [on you] =3F].=3F
=3F[=3F] May Yahweh bless you and keep you. May Yahweh cause his face to
shine [on] you and give you peace [=3F].=3F
The location of the find of the silver scrolls and analysis of the
Hebrew on the scrolls confirm a date close to 600 BCE, perhaps earlier =3F
long before the capture of Jerusalem and the Babylonian exile.
They were Monothesist back in the 600 BCE long before these events that
Agamemnon wrote above.

What a load of cock. All it shows is that Yahweh was one of their gods.
Small sculptures of more recent dates, depicting Yahweh and his
consort Asherah have also been found.

[Dom]

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
Is there any validity to the following, which was posted by
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.history.ancient/msg/d99e4b6a9deec2f0?
=================
There were no such things a Orthodox Jews at the time of the
Maccabbees. Orthodox Judaism was invented in the middle ages. At the
time of the Maccabbees the Jews were polytheistic and always hade been
and two main factions of Jews dominated both of which wanted to
control the temple. One faction worshiped Baal Shamen who they
identified with Zeus (who was also syncretised with Zeus Belus or
Dushara in Arabic, the son of El) whereas another faction worshiped
Elyon his father who was syncretised with El (Alohi in Hebrew or Allah
in Arabic and referred to as Orotalt by Herodotus) who was identified
by the Jews with Dionysus.
The Jews who worshiped Dionysus El Elyon were allied with the
Ptolemaic Egyptians and were admitted into the mysteries and branded
with the Ivy Leaf symbol of Dionysus. Those that supported the claim
of Zeus Baal Shamen to the temple worshiped were allied with the
Seleucids. The temple was in fact original the temple of Elyon and
Judas Maccabbee led the Jews that worshiped Dionysus to retake if from
those that wanted to worship Baal Shamen there instead. From the First
Book of Maccabbees we know that when Judas finally capture the temple
he celebrated by worshiping Elyon by waving wands covered with ivy,
which of course was the Thyrsus as carried by Dionysus and his
followers.

Very little.
In June 1986 archaeologists of Tel Aviv University announced discovery
of two small silver scolls or amulets. These two silver scrolls were
found in 1979 deep inside a burial cave at a site known as Ketef Hinnom,
west of the old city of Jerusalem. They were hidden at the back of the
tomb embedded in pottery fashioned as early as the seventh century BC.
Seven years later the fragile silver scrolls were opened and their texts
deciphered. The silver scrolls contain an excerpt from Numbers 6:24-26,
also known as the Priestly Benediction. In English the verses read: =3FThe
LORD bless you and keep you; The LORD make His face shine upon you, And
be gracious to you; The LORD lift up His countenance upon you, And give
=3F[=3F] May Yahweh bless you [and] keep you. May Yahweh cause his face to
shine [on you] =3F].=3F
=3F[=3F] May Yahweh bless you and keep you. May Yahweh cause his face to
shine [on] you and give you peace [=3F].=3F
The location of the find of the silver scrolls and analysis of the
Hebrew on the scrolls confirm a date close to 600 BCE, perhaps earlier =3F
long before the capture of Jerusalem and the Babylonian exile.
They were Monothesist back in the 600 BCE long before these events that
Agamemnon wrote above.

What a load of cock.  All it shows is that Yahweh was one of their gods.
  Small sculptures of more recent dates, depicting Yahweh and his
consort Asherah have also been found.

Are images of Yahweh and Asherah available on-line?

[Agamemnon]

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
Is there any validity to the following, which was posted by
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.history.ancient/msg/d99e4b6a9deec2f0?
=================
There were no such things a Orthodox Jews at the time of the
Maccabbees. Orthodox Judaism was invented in the middle ages. At the
time of the Maccabbees the Jews were polytheistic and always hade been
and two main factions of Jews dominated both of which wanted to
control the temple. One faction worshiped Baal Shamen who they
identified with Zeus (who was also syncretised with Zeus Belus or
Dushara in Arabic, the son of El) whereas another faction worshiped
Elyon his father who was syncretised with El (Alohi in Hebrew or Allah
in Arabic and referred to as Orotalt by Herodotus) who was identified
by the Jews with Dionysus.
The Jews who worshiped Dionysus El Elyon were allied with the
Ptolemaic Egyptians and were admitted into the mysteries and branded
with the Ivy Leaf symbol of Dionysus. Those that supported the claim
of Zeus Baal Shamen to the temple worshiped were allied with the
Seleucids. The temple was in fact original the temple of Elyon and
Judas Maccabbee led the Jews that worshiped Dionysus to retake if from
those that wanted to worship Baal Shamen there instead. From the First
Book of Maccabbees we know that when Judas finally capture the temple
he celebrated by worshiping Elyon by waving wands covered with ivy,
which of course was the Thyrsus as carried by Dionysus and his
followers.

Very little.
In June 1986 archaeologists of Tel Aviv University announced discovery
of two small silver scolls or amulets. These two silver scrolls were
found in 1979 deep inside a burial cave at a site known as Ketef Hinnom,
west of the old city of Jerusalem. They were hidden at the back of the
tomb embedded in pottery fashioned as early as the seventh century BC.
Seven years later the fragile silver scrolls were opened and their texts
deciphered. The silver scrolls contain an excerpt from Numbers 6:24-26,
also known as the Priestly Benediction. In English the verses read: =3FThe
LORD bless you and keep you; The LORD make His face shine upon you, And
be gracious to you; The LORD lift up His countenance upon you, And give
=3F[=3F] May Yahweh bless you [and] keep you. May Yahweh cause his face to
shine [on you] =3F].=3F
=3F[=3F] May Yahweh bless you and keep you. May Yahweh cause his face to
shine [on] you and give you peace [=3F].=3F
The location of the find of the silver scrolls and analysis of the
Hebrew on the scrolls confirm a date close to 600 BCE, perhaps earlier =3F
long before the capture of Jerusalem and the Babylonian exile.
They were Monothesist back in the 600 BCE long before these events that
Agamemnon wrote above.

What a load of cock. All it shows is that Yahweh was one of their gods.
Small sculptures of more recent dates, depicting Yahweh and his
consort Asherah have also been found.

<<<Are images of Yahweh and Asherah available on-line?>>>

http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/2938/mindei.html

[Martin Edwards]

Post by Dom

Post by Martin Edwards

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
Is there any validity to the following, which was posted by
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.history.ancient/msg/d99e4b6a9deec2f0?
=================
There were no such things a Orthodox Jews at the time of the
Maccabbees. Orthodox Judaism was invented in the middle ages. At the
time of the Maccabbees the Jews were polytheistic and always hade been
and two main factions of Jews dominated both of which wanted to
control the temple. One faction worshiped Baal Shamen who they
identified with Zeus (who was also syncretised with Zeus Belus or
Dushara in Arabic, the son of El) whereas another faction worshiped
Elyon his father who was syncretised with El (Alohi in Hebrew or Allah
in Arabic and referred to as Orotalt by Herodotus) who was identified
by the Jews with Dionysus.
The Jews who worshiped Dionysus El Elyon were allied with the
Ptolemaic Egyptians and were admitted into the mysteries and branded
with the Ivy Leaf symbol of Dionysus. Those that supported the claim
of Zeus Baal Shamen to the temple worshiped were allied with the
Seleucids. The temple was in fact original the temple of Elyon and
Judas Maccabbee led the Jews that worshiped Dionysus to retake if from
those that wanted to worship Baal Shamen there instead. From the First
Book of Maccabbees we know that when Judas finally capture the temple
he celebrated by worshiping Elyon by waving wands covered with ivy,
which of course was the Thyrsus as carried by Dionysus and his
followers.

Very little.
In June 1986 archaeologists of Tel Aviv University announced discovery
of two small silver scolls or amulets. These two silver scrolls were
found in 1979 deep inside a burial cave at a site known as Ketef Hinnom,
west of the old city of Jerusalem. They were hidden at the back of the
tomb embedded in pottery fashioned as early as the seventh century BC.
Seven years later the fragile silver scrolls were opened and their texts
deciphered. The silver scrolls contain an excerpt from Numbers 6:24-26,
also known as the Priestly Benediction. In English the verses read: =3FThe
LORD bless you and keep you; The LORD make His face shine upon you, And
be gracious to you; The LORD lift up His countenance upon you, And give
=3F[=3F] May Yahweh bless you [and] keep you. May Yahweh cause his face to
shine [on you] =3F].=3F
=3F[=3F] May Yahweh bless you and keep you. May Yahweh cause his face to
shine [on] you and give you peace [=3F].=3F
The location of the find of the silver scrolls and analysis of the
Hebrew on the scrolls confirm a date close to 600 BCE, perhaps earlier =3F
long before the capture of Jerusalem and the Babylonian exile.
They were Monothesist back in the 600 BCE long before these events that
Agamemnon wrote above.

What a load of cock. All it shows is that Yahweh was one of their gods.
Small sculptures of more recent dates, depicting Yahweh and his
consort Asherah have also been found.

Are images of Yahweh and Asherah available on-line?

Yes, in al-Haaretz, oddly enough. This left wing (by Israeli standards)
paper regularly trashes Zionist myths. The logical course, to me, would
be for the whole staff to go back to Brooklyn, but for now it is still
in Israel.

[Matt Giwer]

Martin Edwards wrote:
...

Post by Martin Edwards

Post by Dom
Are images of Yahweh and Asherah available on-line?

Yes, in al-Haaretz, oddly enough. This left wing (by Israeli standards)
paper regularly trashes Zionist myths. The logical course, to me, would
be for the whole staff to go back to Brooklyn, but for now it is still
in Israel.

Brooklyn? Maybe their grandparents. Haaretz (Ha'Aretz, The Land, your al is
superfluous) is the oldest Hebrew language newspaper in Israel and before that
in Palestine published out of Jerusalem. Read their English language
translations carefully. English is not their native language. Neither is it
Brooklynese. They are good at English but not native speakers.

BTW: Israel's radical left would be right of center in the US. Their radical
right is paleo-religious fundie. You might be interested in the following link
describing a Jewish attempt to import the Israeli political spectrum to the US
and convince the US the liberals want a two state solution without sovereignty
for the non-jews.

http://www.libertyforum.org/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=war_israel_palestine&Number=296204890&Forum=All_Forums&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=296204887

[Matt Giwer]

...

Post by Dom

Post by Martin Edwards
What a load of cock. All it shows is that Yahweh was one of their gods.
Small sculptures of more recent dates, depicting Yahweh and his
consort Asherah have also been found.

Are images of Yahweh and Asherah available on-line?

I have a few images of the divine pair I can put on line if there is interest.
These are 3D sculptures but without rulers to show scale. I assume about 8
inches in the largest dimension.

Let me remind myself to do it.

[SolomonW]

In article <mrGRj.112231$***@newsfe08.ams2>, ***@yahoo.com
says...

Post by Martin Edwards
Small sculptures of more recent dates, depicting Yahweh and his
consort Asherah have also been found.

Check again, what is interesting is the place for Asherah on many of
these sculptures is empty. By the way, many say that Asherah means not a
consort but a pole.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asherah#In_Israel_and_Judah

[Christopher Ingham]

Post by SolomonW
says...

 Small sculptures of more recent dates, depicting Yahweh and his
consort Asherah have also been found.

Check again, what is interesting is the place for Asherah on many of
these sculptures is empty. By the way, many say that Asherah means not a
consort but a pole.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asherah#In_Israel_and_Judah

As to whether references to Asherah are to wooden cult
symbols or to the goddess herself is a subject of
considerable controversy, as is (or even more so) the
extent to which the biblical literature underwent
revisions during the postexilic period, when references
to a consort deity of Yahweh may have been expunged.

Christopher Ingham

[Matt Giwer]

Post by Christopher Ingham

Post by SolomonW
says...

Post by Martin Edwards
Small sculptures of more recent dates, depicting Yahweh and his
consort Asherah have also been found.

Check again, what is interesting is the place for Asherah on many of
these sculptures is empty. By the way, many say that Asherah means not a
consort but a pole.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asherah#In_Israel_and_Judah

As to whether references to Asherah are to wooden cult
symbols or to the goddess herself is a subject of
considerable controversy, as is (or even more so) the
extent to which the biblical literature underwent
revisions during the postexilic period, when references
to a consort deity of Yahweh may have been expunged.

First off, there was no exile. There is no physical evidence of it. Babylon did
not do such things. The "return of holy things to their places" is to idols
which we know the Babylonians did take back to their city.

Second Asharah is also spelled Astarte or STRT in Aramaic the language of Judea
from the first time it appears in history. We also have BT YHWH as Temple of
Yahweh. We have several mentions of BT STRT in Jerusalem. In only one case is BT
translated as tower. It is translated as many things but never as tower. I ask
you is it reasonable to translate BT YHWH as Temple of Yahweh and BT STRT as
Strato's Tower? Why is it not translated as Temple of Astarte?

Your basic error is assuming the OT is a history of bibleland when we do in
fact know it cannot be as I have shown here many times. You also assume it is a
recounting of any kind of history when we know cult leaders lie about not only
history but current facts.

[SolomonW]

In article <6b0cf89b-cd44-43e7-bf2e-4f6f87b6a371
@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, ***@comcast.net says...

Post by Christopher Ingham

Post by SolomonW
says...

 Small sculptures of more recent dates, depicting Yahweh and his
consort Asherah have also been found.

Check again, what is interesting is the place for Asherah on many of
these sculptures is empty. By the way, many say that Asherah means not a
consort but a pole.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asherah#In_Israel_and_Judah

As to whether references to Asherah are to wooden cult
symbols

Yes

Post by Christopher Ingham
or to the goddess herself is a subject of
considerable controversy, as is (or even more so) the
extent to which the biblical literature underwent
revisions during the postexilic period, when references
to a consort deity of Yahweh may have been expunged.
Christopher Ingham

Dever view is that there was an elite priestly Judaism which is the
source of most of the Old Testament which is almost all monotheistic
and a folk Judaism which was not so monotheistic and accepted a female
consort of God.

[Agamemnon]

"SolomonW" <***@DONTBOTHER.com> wrote in message news:***@news...
In article <6b0cf89b-cd44-43e7-bf2e-4f6f87b6a371
@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, ***@comcast.net says...

Post by Christopher Ingham

Post by SolomonW
says...

Post by Martin Edwards
Small sculptures of more recent dates, depicting Yahweh and his
consort Asherah have also been found.

Check again, what is interesting is the place for Asherah on many of
these sculptures is empty. By the way, many say that Asherah means not a
consort but a pole.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asherah#In_Israel_and_Judah

As to whether references to Asherah are to wooden cult
symbols

Yes

Post by Christopher Ingham
or to the goddess herself is a subject of
considerable controversy, as is (or even more so) the
extent to which the biblical literature underwent
revisions during the postexilic period, when references
to a consort deity of Yahweh may have been expunged.
Christopher Ingham

<<<Dever view is that there was an elite priestly Judaism which is the
source of most of the Old Testament which is almost all monotheistic>>>

NO IT IS NOT!

The Old Testament is COMPLETELY POLYTHEISTIC! Judaism is the most
polytheistic religion on the planet. The OT names at least 7 different Gods
that were worshiped by the so-called Hebrews, Israelites, Ioudai all of whom
were syncretised with Jehovah after Titus destroyed the temple of Elyon. The
most likely author of the OT as we know it was Josephus since almost all of
the Dead Sea Scrolls date to his time or after and the source texts of
Genesis, the books of Noah and Enoch are known to have been written at about
the same time. So how could Genesis as we know it date before them? The Noah
story itself was plagiarised from the Greeks, Romans and Phrygians/Armenians
as can clearly be seen in "The Travels of Noe into Europe" by Lynche who
bases his work on the Chaldanean history of pseudo-Berosus which only
appears at the time of Alexander the Great and is the primary source of the
stories and histories which formed the basis of the Septuagint. Noe is a
direct cognate with the Greek name Ion (a contraction of Deukaliones) and
was the Italian king Ianus II who lived at the time of the Ogygian Deluges
which dates precisely to the time of the Mega Tsunami caused by the Thera
Eruption of 1628 BC and is the source of the Flood myth including the one on
the 11 tablet of the Gilgamesh epic which is based on the Akkadian
Atra-Hasis epic which was known to have been written between 1646 and 1626
BC, at the exact time of the Thara Eruption itself.

The Chaldanean history of pseudo-Berosus was taken by the Maccabbees to form
the basis of a Romanised history of Palestine with the Italian king Ianus II
(Noah) at the centre of it and was originally written as a massive poetic
work in the style of Homer in Hellenistic times. Just like Homer the Jews
took existing histories and made the Gods appear on earth in human form in
the shape of the major kings of the land most of whom were Pharaohs of
Egypt. For example in Jeremiah in one paragraph Nebuchadnezzar is described
as taking all the land of Palestine from Pharaoh Necho and three paragraphs
later (in the original LXX version) the LORD is described as signing over
the land to Nebuchadnezzar to make it legally his. We also have Herodotus
account of Necho giving this same land to Nebuchadnezzar and we also have
the inscription of Nebuchadnezzar which says the same, so it is clear that
the LORD being referred to was Jehovah coming down to earth and taking the
appearance of Necho himself and giving the land to Nebuchadnezzar. That is
how the bible was concocted, and given that this manner of the Gods coming
down to earth and appearing as mortals was still being described pertaining
to the time of Nebuchadnezzar's decedents until Cyrus deposed them the
so-called Jews were clearly aware that the histories of Israel and Judea
were no different to the Iliad or the Odyssey and cannot have been regarded
as religious texts in any way. Therefore no Jewish religion other than
polytheism could have existed before 500 BC in order to explain the manner
in which the books of Kings and Chronicles, which have to predate the
writing of Genesis through to Exodus, were written. The Pentateuch could not
have been written before Berosus Chaldanian history and therefore must have
been written in Hellenistic times, 300 BC at the earliest, during which time
the Jews must have remained polytheistic since the Pentateuch uses the same
Homeric writing style as Kings and Chronicles, Gods are come to earth in the
appearance of mortals. It would have taken at least 100 years for living
memory of the creation of these texts and the inclusion of the Gods in them
to have been lost and at least 300 years for the original source text to
have been lost due to no longer being copied, which takes us to the time of
Christ.

And as for Christ. Remember the Baal Epic. After Baal Hadad (Adodus or
Adonai) is sent to the underworld by Jehovah and is brought back by Anat,
Jehovah is sent to the underworld and we never hear of him again. That's the
story Christ and second coming is based on. Christ is the son of the God El.
He is even made to say so in the cross, Eli Eli why have you forsaken me.
Jehovah is the son of El. Christ is therefore syncretised with Jehovah. The
Jews knowing the Baal Epic was the basis of their polytheistic religion
never accepted Christ as being the Messiah since Jehovah never came back
from the underworld of Mot (another of El's sons) and still expect a Messiah
to come, ie. Jehovah to rise from the underworld. The Christians have
preserved this belief as the Second Coming, whease the basis of the
resurrection was the story of Baal Hadad's ie. Adonai's decent into the
underworld and return, therefore they syncretised Christ (Jehovah the son of
God, ie. El) with the Lord (capital L, small ord) Adonai. Not only that but
there are three different Holy Spirits. The Spirit of God which is the
Spirit of Adonai and the Spirit of the God which is the Spirit of El and
finally the Spirit of Jesus Christ.

<<<and a folk Judaism which was not so monotheistic and accepted a female
consort of God. >>>

NO!

Assura was not Jehovah's consort. She was his prostitute. Read the Baal
Epic. El sent Assura to prostitute herself to Jehovah just like the bile
tells of Abraham prostituting Sara (the same name as Assura) to the Pharaoh
of Egypt and to Abimelch and Isaac doing the same thing with his wife.

Why do you think the Jewish priests complained about Herod's palace
overlooking the temple. It was whore house. The current Al Aqsa Mosque is
built over the remains of Strato's Tower which was Astartes temple and Herod
could see right into it.

It was the prostitution cult of Assura-Astarte known as Asteroth which was
practiced on the temple summit which was the only link the temple of Elyon
had with Jehovah, since the Jehovah cult itself was centred in Samaria and
Jehovah's temple was destroyed and all the stones pulverised by Alexander
Jannaeus in about 100 BC.

[SolomonW]

Post by SolomonW
In article <6b0cf89b-cd44-43e7-bf2e-4f6f87b6a371
@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, ***@comcast.net says...

Post by Christopher Ingham

Post by SolomonW
says...

Post by Martin Edwards
Small sculptures of more recent dates, depicting Yahweh and his
consort Asherah have also been found.

Check again, what is interesting is the place for Asherah on many of
these sculptures is empty. By the way, many say that Asherah means not a
consort but a pole.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asherah#In_Israel_and_Judah

As to whether references to Asherah are to wooden cult
symbols

Yes

I read one interesting discussion that it is a Asherah which is a staff.

Post by SolomonW

Post by Christopher Ingham
or to the goddess herself is a subject of
considerable controversy, as is (or even more so) the
extent to which the biblical literature underwent
revisions during the postexilic period, when references
to a consort deity of Yahweh may have been expunged.
Christopher Ingham

<<<Dever view is that there was an elite priestly Judaism which is the
source of most of the Old Testament which is almost all monotheistic>>>
NO IT IS NOT!

Wrong it is certainly is Dever's view.


Check out his book "Did God Have A Wife? Archaeology And Folk Religion
In Ancient Israel by William G. Dever"

Post by SolomonW
The Old Testament is COMPLETELY POLYTHEISTIC! Judaism is the most
polytheistic religion on the planet.

Rubbish

<snip nonsense>

[Agamemnon]

Post by SolomonW

Post by SolomonW
In article <6b0cf89b-cd44-43e7-bf2e-4f6f87b6a371
@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, ***@comcast.net says...

Post by Christopher Ingham

Post by SolomonW
says...

Post by Martin Edwards
Small sculptures of more recent dates, depicting Yahweh and his
consort Asherah have also been found.

Check again, what is interesting is the place for Asherah on many of
these sculptures is empty. By the way, many say that Asherah means not a
consort but a pole.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asherah#In_Israel_and_Judah

As to whether references to Asherah are to wooden cult
symbols

Yes

I read one interesting discussion that it is a Asherah which is a staff.

Post by SolomonW

Post by Christopher Ingham
or to the goddess herself is a subject of
considerable controversy, as is (or even more so) the
extent to which the biblical literature underwent
revisions during the postexilic period, when references
to a consort deity of Yahweh may have been expunged.
Christopher Ingham

<<<Dever view is that there was an elite priestly Judaism which is the
source of most of the Old Testament which is almost all monotheistic>>>
NO IT IS NOT!

Wrong it is certainly is Dever's view.

There was NO Judaism as we know it period until after the temple was
destroyed. The Jewish priests were polytheists.

Post by SolomonW
Check out his book "Did God Have A Wife? Archaeology And Folk Religion
In Ancient Israel by William G. Dever"

Nonsense.

Post by SolomonW

Post by SolomonW
The Old Testament is COMPLETELY POLYTHEISTIC! Judaism is the most
polytheistic religion on the planet.

Rubbish

Fact.

Post by SolomonW
<snip nonsense>

[SolomonW]

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by SolomonW
In article <6b0cf89b-cd44-43e7-bf2e-4f6f87b6a371
@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, ***@comcast.net says...

Post by Christopher Ingham

Post by SolomonW
says...

Post by Martin Edwards
Small sculptures of more recent dates, depicting Yahweh and his
consort Asherah have also been found.

Check again, what is interesting is the place for Asherah on many of
these sculptures is empty. By the way, many say that Asherah means not a
consort but a pole.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asherah#In_Israel_and_Judah

As to whether references to Asherah are to wooden cult
symbols

Yes

I read one interesting discussion that it is a Asherah which is a staff.

Post by SolomonW

Post by Christopher Ingham
or to the goddess herself is a subject of
considerable controversy, as is (or even more so) the
extent to which the biblical literature underwent
revisions during the postexilic period, when references
to a consort deity of Yahweh may have been expunged.
Christopher Ingham

<<<Dever view is that there was an elite priestly Judaism which is the
source of most of the Old Testament which is almost all monotheistic>>>
NO IT IS NOT!

Wrong it is certainly is Dever's view.

There was NO Judaism as we know it period until after the temple was
destroyed. The Jewish priests were polytheists.

That is certainly not Dever's view.

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW
Check out his book "Did God Have A Wife? Archaeology And Folk Religion
In Ancient Israel by William G. Dever"

Nonsense.

Some think so too. Any way check out the book and make your own mind up.

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by SolomonW
The Old Testament is COMPLETELY POLYTHEISTIC! Judaism is the most
polytheistic religion on the planet.

Rubbish

Fact.

No nonsense.

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW
<snip nonsense>

[Agamemnon]

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by SolomonW
In article <6b0cf89b-cd44-43e7-bf2e-4f6f87b6a371
@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, ***@comcast.net says...

Post by Christopher Ingham

Post by SolomonW
says...

Post by Martin Edwards
Small sculptures of more recent dates, depicting Yahweh and his
consort Asherah have also been found.

Check again, what is interesting is the place for Asherah on many of
these sculptures is empty. By the way, many say that Asherah means not a
consort but a pole.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asherah#In_Israel_and_Judah

As to whether references to Asherah are to wooden cult
symbols

Yes

I read one interesting discussion that it is a Asherah which is a staff.

Post by SolomonW

Post by Christopher Ingham
or to the goddess herself is a subject of
considerable controversy, as is (or even more so) the
extent to which the biblical literature underwent
revisions during the postexilic period, when references
to a consort deity of Yahweh may have been expunged.
Christopher Ingham

<<<Dever view is that there was an elite priestly Judaism which is the
source of most of the Old Testament which is almost all
monotheistic>>>
NO IT IS NOT!

Wrong it is certainly is Dever's view.

There was NO Judaism as we know it period until after the temple was
destroyed. The Jewish priests were polytheists.

That is certainly not Dever's view.

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW
Check out his book "Did God Have A Wife? Archaeology And Folk Religion
In Ancient Israel by William G. Dever"

Nonsense.

Some think so too. Any way check out the book and make your own mind up.

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by SolomonW
The Old Testament is COMPLETELY POLYTHEISTIC! Judaism is the most
polytheistic religion on the planet.

Rubbish

Fact.

No nonsense.

Read your bible in the original Hebrew. The Jews worship at least 7
different Gods as well as many others. What do you think the Elohim are? The
GODS! Now read Preperation for the Gospel. Everyone know the Jews worshiped
exactly the same Gods as the Phoenicians even in the time of Porphyry and
Philo.

"From the fact, however, that their priests used to chant to the music of
flutes and cymbals, and to wear garlands of ivy, and that a golden vine was
found in the temple, some have thought that they worshipped father Liber,
the conqueror of the East, though their institutions do not by any means
harmonize with the theory; for Liber established a festive and cheerful
worship, while the Jewish religion is tasteless and mean." (Tacitus,
Histories V)

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW
<snip nonsense>

[SolomonW]

Post by Agamemnon
Read your bible in the original Hebrew.

So now you are saying the bible was written orginally in Hebrew!

[Agamemnon]

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon
Read your bible in the original Hebrew.

So now you are saying the bible was written orginally in Hebrew!

The original Hebrew is later than the extant Greek.

[Martin Edwards]

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon
Read your bible in the original Hebrew.

So now you are saying the bible was written orginally in Hebrew!

Gottim, the rotter!

[Matt Giwer]

Post by Martin Edwards

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon
Read your bible in the original Hebrew.

So now you are saying the bible was written orginally in Hebrew!

Gottim, the rotter!

And it would be a goal were it not for Hebrew as late as the 6th c. in the
Mishna being described as the Aramaic of the 1st c. AD.

Remember the other thread?

<quote>
I came across a mention of the Mishna being written in Hebrew between the
3rd and 6th c. AD. OK, there is an old form of Hebrew so I read up on it. If
there is any statement at all it is that this language is the Roman Judea of the
1st c. AD. The rest of the world calls the commonly used language of Roman Judea
in the 1st c. AD Aramaic.

Now this means I have to take a deeper look into the claim that Isaiah
among the DSS is written in Hebrew. Will that also turn out to be Aramaic? Is
the sole criteria for calling something Hebrew the "font" rather than the
language itself?
</quote>

[SolomonW]

In article <uwdTj.10530$***@newsfe16.ams2>, ***@yahoo.com
says...

Post by Martin Edwards

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon
Read your bible in the original Hebrew.

So now you are saying the bible was written orginally in Hebrew!

Gottim, the rotter!

Indeed, I was stunned when he wrote it.

[Matt Giwer]

Post by SolomonW
says...

Post by Martin Edwards

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon
Read your bible in the original Hebrew.

So now you are saying the bible was written orginally in Hebrew!

Gottim, the rotter!

Indeed, I was stunned when he wrote it.

Rather you have not been paying attention.

And it would be a goal were it not for Hebrew as late as the 6th c. in the
Mishna being described as the Aramaic of the 1st c. AD.

Remember the other thread?

<quote>
I came across a mention of the Mishna being written in Hebrew between the
3rd and 6th c. AD. OK, there is an old form of Hebrew so I read up on it. If
there is any statement at all it is that this language is the Roman Judea of the
1st c. AD. The rest of the world calls the commonly used language of Roman Judea
in the 1st c. AD Aramaic.

Now this means I have to take a deeper look into the claim that Isaiah
among the DSS is written in Hebrew. Will that also turn out to be Aramaic? Is
the sole criteria for calling something Hebrew the "font" rather than the
language itself?
</quote>

[Martin Edwards]

Post by SolomonW

Post by SolomonW
In article <6b0cf89b-cd44-43e7-bf2e-4f6f87b6a371
@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, ***@comcast.net says...

Post by Christopher Ingham

Post by SolomonW
says...

Post by Martin Edwards
Small sculptures of more recent dates, depicting Yahweh and his
consort Asherah have also been found.

Check again, what is interesting is the place for Asherah on

many >> > > of

Post by SolomonW

Post by Christopher Ingham

Post by SolomonW
these sculptures is empty. By the way, many say that Asherah

means

Post by SolomonW

Post by Christopher Ingham

Post by SolomonW
not a
consort but a pole.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asherah#In_Israel_and_Judah

As to whether references to Asherah are to wooden cult
symbols

Yes

I read one interesting discussion that it is a Asherah which is a >

staff.

Post by SolomonW

Post by Christopher Ingham
or to the goddess herself is a subject of
considerable controversy, as is (or even more so) the
extent to which the biblical literature underwent
revisions during the postexilic period, when references
to a consort deity of Yahweh may have been expunged.
Christopher Ingham

<<<Dever view is that there was an elite priestly Judaism which is

the

Post by SolomonW
source of most of the Old Testament which is almost all >>

monotheistic>>>

Post by SolomonW
NO IT IS NOT!

Wrong it is certainly is Dever's view.

There was NO Judaism as we know it period until after the temple was
destroyed. The Jewish priests were polytheists.

That is certainly not Dever's view.

Check out his book "Did God Have A Wife? Archaeology And Folk Religion
In Ancient Israel by William G. Dever"

Nonsense.

Some think so too. Any way check out the book and make your own mind up.

Post by SolomonW
The Old Testament is COMPLETELY POLYTHEISTIC! Judaism is the most
polytheistic religion on the planet.

Do you read Hebrew? If so I'll take your word for it. The Septuagint
has only God, the Lord and the Lord God, though it mentions the gods of
other peoples. Jeremiah does mention the Queen of Heaven, but only to
castigate her worshippers. Interestingly, women seem to have had a fair
degree of equality among these backsliders, and were among their
spokespersons.

[Agamemnon]

Post by Martin Edwards

Post by SolomonW

Post by SolomonW
In article <6b0cf89b-cd44-43e7-bf2e-4f6f87b6a371
@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, ***@comcast.net says...

Post by Christopher Ingham

Post by SolomonW
says...

Post by Martin Edwards
Small sculptures of more recent dates, depicting Yahweh and his
consort Asherah have also been found.

Check again, what is interesting is the place for Asherah on

many >> > > of

Post by SolomonW

Post by Christopher Ingham

Post by SolomonW
these sculptures is empty. By the way, many say that Asherah

means

Post by SolomonW

Post by Christopher Ingham

Post by SolomonW
not a
consort but a pole.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asherah#In_Israel_and_Judah

As to whether references to Asherah are to wooden cult
symbols

Yes

I read one interesting discussion that it is a Asherah which is a >

staff.

Post by SolomonW

Post by Christopher Ingham
or to the goddess herself is a subject of
considerable controversy, as is (or even more so) the
extent to which the biblical literature underwent
revisions during the postexilic period, when references
to a consort deity of Yahweh may have been expunged.
Christopher Ingham

<<<Dever view is that there was an elite priestly Judaism which is

the

Post by SolomonW
source of most of the Old Testament which is almost all >>

monotheistic>>>

Post by SolomonW
NO IT IS NOT!

Wrong it is certainly is Dever's view.

There was NO Judaism as we know it period until after the temple was
destroyed. The Jewish priests were polytheists.

That is certainly not Dever's view.

Check out his book "Did God Have A Wife? Archaeology And Folk Religion
In Ancient Israel by William G. Dever"

Nonsense.

Some think so too. Any way check out the book and make your own mind up.

Post by SolomonW
The Old Testament is COMPLETELY POLYTHEISTIC! Judaism is the most
polytheistic religion on the planet.

Do you read Hebrew? If so I'll take your word for it. The Septuagint

Yes, I can read Hebrew characters.

Post by Martin Edwards
has only God, the Lord and the Lord God, though it mentions the gods of
other peoples. Jeremiah does mention the Queen of Heaven, but only to

The Hebrew version of the bible refers to at least seven different Gods.
Elohim (the Gods), El (God), Shaddai (the Destroyer), Elyon (the Most High),
Adonai (Lord), Yahweh/Yah, Tseboath (Lord of Hosts).
These names or their variants appear to be the names of Gods in the
Phoenician Pantheon as given by Philo (who is quoted by Eusebius in
“Preparation for the Gospel”), and are also recorded in the Ras Sharma
Tablets.

The Phoenician settlement of Syria-Palestine dates back to at least 2200 BC
and according to Philo their first God was the wind and air who produced
Mot. After about sixteen generations spanning about 400 years the God Elioun
the Most High is born.

The biblical God Elyon corresponds to Elioun who was the 18th century BC
Phoenician king of Byblos and the father of Epigeius (Uranus/Baal-Shamen).
He was made into a god by the Phoenicians after he was killed by wild
beasts.
El (Kronos) was the son of Epigeius and the Gods who were allied to El when
he fought against Epigeius for the kingship were known as the Elohim.

Shaddai corresponds to Sadidus, the son of El, who El put to death as a
suspected traitor.

Adonai corresponds to Adonis, Adis or Attis, a God of the underworld. If he
was not borrowed directly from the neighbouring Greeks or the Phrygians he
might have originally been the Phoenician king Adodus. Both Adonis and
Adodus (Baal-Hadad) were deities who were brought back from the underworld
by the intervention of Aphrodite. This suggests that their cults were
probably based on the Tammuz/Dumuzi cult imported from Babylon.

Yahweh or Yah corresponds to the Phoenician God Yam (Yaw, Ieuo or Pontus)
the son of El who is probably a Hyksos period king of Egypt, ether Yakubher
(c.1674) or Yakobaam (c.1650), who was made into the Phoenician Sea God.
According to the Ras Sharma Tablets Baal-Hadad kills him in battle. The root
of the name is probably the same as the Greek word Gialo meaning Sea.

Tseboath the Lord of Armies is probably Resheph the Canaanite God of plague,
war and pestilence. He might be Demarus (Mars?) son of Dagon and father of
Melcathrus (Herakles).

Other Gods of the Phoenician Pantheon that are named in the Bible are Mot
who may either be the 23rd century BC Phoenician God born out of Aether and
Desire or more probably the later 17th century Phoenician God Muth the son
of El.

Dagon, brother of El was the Phoenician God of agriculture. He was also
known as Siton (grain) so may have been identified with Set or Satan an
Egyptian import.

Astoreth corresponds to both Ashura and Astarte (Aphrodite). The Jews seem
to have merged Astarte and Ashura the consort of El who prostituted herself
to Yahweh (Yam) into one goddess. Astarte and Ashura were both daughters of
Epigeius.

Baal or Belus was the son of El. Baal fathers Nereus who fathers Pontus (the
second). There were several other Baals including Baal-Hadad and a multitude
of historical Phoenician kings going by that name.

Leviathan or Lotan may have been another name for Yahweh (Yam) or one of his
allies who was defeated by Baal and Anath. He may also be synonymous with
Satan and thus Typhon. According to indo-European etymology the name Typhon
derives from the root *dhub(h)-n- meaning “deep” and the name Python derives
from *b(h)ud(h)-n- meaning “bottom” or “deep” therefore the root of the name
(Le)viathan which is referred to as a serpent residing in the sea must also
be *b(h)ud(h)-n- which is transformed into El Bathon or God of the Deep.

Behemoth may be another name for Maveth or Mot or one of his allies who was
defeated by Baal and Anath. In the Baal Epic Maveth goes to war with Baal
because of his destruction of the serpent Lotan.

Satan was probably the Egyptian God Set who the Greeks associated with
Typhon. He may have been the brother of Yahweh but Philo does not make his
parentage clear. In the bible the word Satan is used to refer to the
“adversary” or “slanderer”. The term may be related to the name Seth which
means “appointed” and might have been originally used to refer to ones
opponent in court in a case of slander or the one appointed to speak for him
(viz. diabolon, Andocides 2.24).

From the above it is obvious that the God of the bible was created by
merging together at least seven Gods of the Phoenician Pantheon who were
originally worshipped separately. These Gods according to Eusebius,
“Preparation for the Gospel” were originally living kings who ruled over the
Phoenicians in Syria-Palestine from approximately 1800 to 1600 BC.

Post by Martin Edwards
castigate her worshippers. Interestingly, women seem to have had a fair
degree of equality among these backsliders, and were among their
spokespersons.
--
Corporate society looks after everything. All it asks of anyone, all it
has ever asked of anyone, is that they do not interfere with management
decisions. -From “Rollerball”

[Martin Edwards]

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Martin Edwards

Post by SolomonW

Post by SolomonW

Post by SolomonW
In article <6b0cf89b-cd44-43e7-bf2e-4f6f87b6a371
@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, ***@comcast.net >>

says...

Post by SolomonW

Post by Christopher Ingham

Post by SolomonW
says...

Post by Martin Edwards
Small sculptures of more recent dates, depicting Yahweh

and >> > > > his

Post by SolomonW

Post by Christopher Ingham

Post by SolomonW

Post by Martin Edwards
consort Asherah have also been found.

Check again, what is interesting is the place for Asherah on

many >> > > of

Post by SolomonW

Post by Christopher Ingham

Post by SolomonW
these sculptures is empty. By the way, many say that Asherah

means

Post by SolomonW

Post by Christopher Ingham

Post by SolomonW
not a
consort but a pole.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asherah#In_Israel_and_Judah

As to whether references to Asherah are to wooden cult
symbols

Yes

I read one interesting discussion that it is a Asherah which is a >

staff.

Post by SolomonW

Post by Christopher Ingham
or to the goddess herself is a subject of
considerable controversy, as is (or even more so) the
extent to which the biblical literature underwent
revisions during the postexilic period, when references
to a consort deity of Yahweh may have been expunged.
Christopher Ingham

<<<Dever view is that there was an elite priestly Judaism which is

the

Post by SolomonW
source of most of the Old Testament which is almost all >>

monotheistic>>>

Post by SolomonW
NO IT IS NOT!

Wrong it is certainly is Dever's view.

There was NO Judaism as we know it period until after the temple was
destroyed. The Jewish priests were polytheists.

That is certainly not Dever's view.

Post by SolomonW

Check out his book "Did God Have A Wife? Archaeology And Folk >

Religion

In Ancient Israel by William G. Dever"

Nonsense.

Some think so too. Any way check out the book and make your own mind up.

Post by SolomonW

Post by SolomonW
The Old Testament is COMPLETELY POLYTHEISTIC! Judaism is the most
polytheistic religion on the planet.

Do you read Hebrew? If so I'll take your word for it. The Septuagint

Yes, I can read Hebrew characters.

Post by Martin Edwards
has only God, the Lord and the Lord God, though it mentions the gods
of other peoples. Jeremiah does mention the Queen of Heaven, but only to

The Hebrew version of the bible refers to at least seven different Gods.
Elohim (the Gods), El (God), Shaddai (the Destroyer), Elyon (the Most
High), Adonai (Lord), Yahweh/Yah, Tseboath (Lord of Hosts).
These names or their variants appear to be the names of Gods in the
Phoenician Pantheon as given by Philo (who is quoted by Eusebius in
“Preparation for the Gospel”), and are also recorded in the Ras Sharma
Tablets.
The Phoenician settlement of Syria-Palestine dates back to at least 2200
BC and according to Philo their first God was the wind and air who
produced Mot. After about sixteen generations spanning about 400 years
the God Elioun the Most High is born.
The biblical God Elyon corresponds to Elioun who was the 18th century BC
Phoenician king of Byblos and the father of Epigeius
(Uranus/Baal-Shamen). He was made into a god by the Phoenicians after he
was killed by wild beasts.
El (Kronos) was the son of Epigeius and the Gods who were allied to El
when he fought against Epigeius for the kingship were known as the Elohim.
Shaddai corresponds to Sadidus, the son of El, who El put to death as a
suspected traitor.
Adonai corresponds to Adonis, Adis or Attis, a God of the underworld. If
he was not borrowed directly from the neighbouring Greeks or the
Phrygians he might have originally been the Phoenician king Adodus. Both
Adonis and Adodus (Baal-Hadad) were deities who were brought back from
the underworld by the intervention of Aphrodite. This suggests that
their cults were probably based on the Tammuz/Dumuzi cult imported from
Babylon.
Yahweh or Yah corresponds to the Phoenician God Yam (Yaw, Ieuo or
Pontus) the son of El who is probably a Hyksos period king of Egypt,
ether Yakubher (c.1674) or Yakobaam (c.1650), who was made into the
Phoenician Sea God. According to the Ras Sharma Tablets Baal-Hadad kills
him in battle. The root of the name is probably the same as the Greek
word Gialo meaning Sea.
Tseboath the Lord of Armies is probably Resheph the Canaanite God of
plague, war and pestilence. He might be Demarus (Mars?) son of Dagon and
father of Melcathrus (Herakles).
Other Gods of the Phoenician Pantheon that are named in the Bible are
Mot who may either be the 23rd century BC Phoenician God born out of
Aether and Desire or more probably the later 17th century Phoenician God
Muth the son of El.
Dagon, brother of El was the Phoenician God of agriculture. He was also
known as Siton (grain) so may have been identified with Set or Satan an
Egyptian import.
Astoreth corresponds to both Ashura and Astarte (Aphrodite). The Jews
seem to have merged Astarte and Ashura the consort of El who prostituted
herself to Yahweh (Yam) into one goddess. Astarte and Ashura were both
daughters of Epigeius.
Baal or Belus was the son of El. Baal fathers Nereus who fathers Pontus
(the second). There were several other Baals including Baal-Hadad and a
multitude of historical Phoenician kings going by that name.
Leviathan or Lotan may have been another name for Yahweh (Yam) or one of
his allies who was defeated by Baal and Anath. He may also be synonymous
with Satan and thus Typhon. According to indo-European etymology the
name Typhon derives from the root *dhub(h)-n- meaning “deep” and the
name Python derives from *b(h)ud(h)-n- meaning “bottom” or “deep”
therefore the root of the name (Le)viathan which is referred to as a
serpent residing in the sea must also be *b(h)ud(h)-n- which is
transformed into El Bathon or God of the Deep.
Behemoth may be another name for Maveth or Mot or one of his allies who
was defeated by Baal and Anath. In the Baal Epic Maveth goes to war with
Baal because of his destruction of the serpent Lotan.
Satan was probably the Egyptian God Set who the Greeks associated with
Typhon. He may have been the brother of Yahweh but Philo does not make
his parentage clear. In the bible the word Satan is used to refer to the
“adversary” or “slanderer”. The term may be related to the name Seth
which means “appointed” and might have been originally used to refer to
ones opponent in court in a case of slander or the one appointed to
speak for him (viz. diabolon, Andocides 2.24).
From the above it is obvious that the God of the bible was created by
merging together at least seven Gods of the Phoenician Pantheon who were
originally worshipped separately. These Gods according to Eusebius,
“Preparation for the Gospel” were originally living kings who ruled over
the Phoenicians in Syria-Palestine from approximately 1800 to 1600 BC.

I am not questioning your knowledge of the Phoenician gods, only that
they are in the OT or, crucially, that you would know either way. I
read Greek: I do not read Hebrew. Do you?

[Agamemnon]

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Martin Edwards

Post by SolomonW

Post by SolomonW

Post by SolomonW
In article <6b0cf89b-cd44-43e7-bf2e-4f6f87b6a371
@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, ***@comcast.net >>

says...

Post by SolomonW

Post by Christopher Ingham

Post by SolomonW
says...

Post by Martin Edwards
Small sculptures of more recent dates, depicting Yahweh

and >> > > > his

Post by SolomonW

Post by Christopher Ingham

Post by SolomonW

Post by Martin Edwards
consort Asherah have also been found.

Check again, what is interesting is the place for Asherah on

many >> > > of

Post by SolomonW

Post by Christopher Ingham

Post by SolomonW
these sculptures is empty. By the way, many say that Asherah

means

Post by SolomonW

Post by Christopher Ingham

Post by SolomonW
not a
consort but a pole.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asherah#In_Israel_and_Judah

As to whether references to Asherah are to wooden cult
symbols

Yes

I read one interesting discussion that it is a Asherah which is a >

staff.

Post by SolomonW

Post by Christopher Ingham
or to the goddess herself is a subject of
considerable controversy, as is (or even more so) the
extent to which the biblical literature underwent
revisions during the postexilic period, when references
to a consort deity of Yahweh may have been expunged.
Christopher Ingham

<<<Dever view is that there was an elite priestly Judaism which is

the

Post by SolomonW
source of most of the Old Testament which is almost all >>

monotheistic>>>

Post by SolomonW
NO IT IS NOT!

Wrong it is certainly is Dever's view.

There was NO Judaism as we know it period until after the temple was
destroyed. The Jewish priests were polytheists.

That is certainly not Dever's view.

Post by SolomonW

Check out his book "Did God Have A Wife? Archaeology And Folk >

Religion

In Ancient Israel by William G. Dever"

Nonsense.

Some think so too. Any way check out the book and make your own mind up.

Post by SolomonW

Post by SolomonW
The Old Testament is COMPLETELY POLYTHEISTIC! Judaism is the most
polytheistic religion on the planet.

Do you read Hebrew? If so I'll take your word for it. The Septuagint

Yes, I can read Hebrew characters.

Post by Martin Edwards
has only God, the Lord and the Lord God, though it mentions the gods of
other peoples. Jeremiah does mention the Queen of Heaven, but only to

The Hebrew version of the bible refers to at least seven different Gods.
Elohim (the Gods), El (God), Shaddai (the Destroyer), Elyon (the Most
High), Adonai (Lord), Yahweh/Yah, Tseboath (Lord of Hosts).
These names or their variants appear to be the names of Gods in the
Phoenician Pantheon as given by Philo (who is quoted by Eusebius in
“Preparation for the Gospel”), and are also recorded in the Ras Sharma
Tablets.
The Phoenician settlement of Syria-Palestine dates back to at least 2200
BC and according to Philo their first God was the wind and air who
produced Mot. After about sixteen generations spanning about 400 years
the God Elioun the Most High is born.
The biblical God Elyon corresponds to Elioun who was the 18th century BC
Phoenician king of Byblos and the father of Epigeius
(Uranus/Baal-Shamen). He was made into a god by the Phoenicians after he
was killed by wild beasts.
El (Kronos) was the son of Epigeius and the Gods who were allied to El
when he fought against Epigeius for the kingship were known as the Elohim.
Shaddai corresponds to Sadidus, the son of El, who El put to death as a
suspected traitor.
Adonai corresponds to Adonis, Adis or Attis, a God of the underworld. If
he was not borrowed directly from the neighbouring Greeks or the
Phrygians he might have originally been the Phoenician king Adodus. Both
Adonis and Adodus (Baal-Hadad) were deities who were brought back from
the underworld by the intervention of Aphrodite. This suggests that their
cults were probably based on the Tammuz/Dumuzi cult imported from
Babylon.
Yahweh or Yah corresponds to the Phoenician God Yam (Yaw, Ieuo or Pontus)
the son of El who is probably a Hyksos period king of Egypt, ether
Yakubher (c.1674) or Yakobaam (c.1650), who was made into the Phoenician
Sea God. According to the Ras Sharma Tablets Baal-Hadad kills him in
battle. The root of the name is probably the same as the Greek word Gialo
meaning Sea.
Tseboath the Lord of Armies is probably Resheph the Canaanite God of
plague, war and pestilence. He might be Demarus (Mars?) son of Dagon and
father of Melcathrus (Herakles).
Other Gods of the Phoenician Pantheon that are named in the Bible are Mot
who may either be the 23rd century BC Phoenician God born out of Aether
and Desire or more probably the later 17th century Phoenician God Muth
the son of El.
Dagon, brother of El was the Phoenician God of agriculture. He was also
known as Siton (grain) so may have been identified with Set or Satan an
Egyptian import.
Astoreth corresponds to both Ashura and Astarte (Aphrodite). The Jews
seem to have merged Astarte and Ashura the consort of El who prostituted
herself to Yahweh (Yam) into one goddess. Astarte and Ashura were both
daughters of Epigeius.
Baal or Belus was the son of El. Baal fathers Nereus who fathers Pontus
(the second). There were several other Baals including Baal-Hadad and a
multitude of historical Phoenician kings going by that name.
Leviathan or Lotan may have been another name for Yahweh (Yam) or one of
his allies who was defeated by Baal and Anath. He may also be synonymous
with Satan and thus Typhon. According to indo-European etymology the name
Typhon derives from the root *dhub(h)-n- meaning “deep” and the name
Python derives from *b(h)ud(h)-n- meaning “bottom” or “deep” therefore
the root of the name (Le)viathan which is referred to as a serpent
residing in the sea must also be *b(h)ud(h)-n- which is transformed into
El Bathon or God of the Deep.
Behemoth may be another name for Maveth or Mot or one of his allies who
was defeated by Baal and Anath. In the Baal Epic Maveth goes to war with
Baal because of his destruction of the serpent Lotan.
Satan was probably the Egyptian God Set who the Greeks associated with
Typhon. He may have been the brother of Yahweh but Philo does not make
his parentage clear. In the bible the word Satan is used to refer to the
“adversary” or “slanderer”. The term may be related to the name Seth
which means “appointed” and might have been originally used to refer to
ones opponent in court in a case of slander or the one appointed to speak
for him (viz. diabolon, Andocides 2.24).
From the above it is obvious that the God of the bible was created by
merging together at least seven Gods of the Phoenician Pantheon who were
originally worshipped separately. These Gods according to Eusebius,
“Preparation for the Gospel” were originally living kings who ruled over
the Phoenicians in Syria-Palestine from approximately 1800 to 1600 BC.

I am not questioning your knowledge of the Phoenician gods, only that they
are in the OT or, crucially, that you would know either way. I read
Greek: I do not read Hebrew. Do you?

I already answered your idiotic question. I can read Hebrew script. The Gods
I named appear in the bible and are worshiped by the Jews.

[Matt Giwer]

Martin Edwards wrote:
...

Post by Martin Edwards
Do you read Hebrew? If so I'll take your word for it. The Septuagint
has only God, the Lord and the Lord God, though it mentions the gods of
other peoples. Jeremiah does mention the Queen of Heaven, but only to
castigate her worshippers. Interestingly, women seem to have had a fair
degree of equality among these backsliders, and were among their
spokespersons.

The short version of Aggie's is

How in the hell do you get "Lord God" out of "Yahweh Elohim"?

El is god, iM is plural. Yahweh is the partner of Ashara in Ugaritic texts.
Your guess is as good as anyone's as to what oH means. The most common guess I
have found is feminine.

Aggie's main is that it is only by assuming monotheism that all the different
names are considered variations upon the name of the same god. Without assuming
monotheism it reads more cleanly as simply different gods. And when in fact
there are different gods with close variants of these names in the region,
within a day or two walking distance, it is nor reasonable to assume only in
bibleland are they variant names for the same god.

One thing that should be emphasized here. The heavenly hosts is a tortured
translation for a word most simply translated as armies.

[Martin Edwards]

Post by Matt Giwer
...

Post by Martin Edwards
Do you read Hebrew? If so I'll take your word for it. The Septuagint
has only God, the Lord and the Lord God, though it mentions the gods
of other peoples. Jeremiah does mention the Queen of Heaven, but only
to castigate her worshippers. Interestingly, women seem to have had a
fair degree of equality among these backsliders, and were among their
spokespersons.

The short version of Aggie's is
How in the hell do you get "Lord God" out of "Yahweh Elohim"?
El is god, iM is plural. Yahweh is the partner of Ashara in Ugaritic
texts. Your guess is as good as anyone's as to what oH means. The most
common guess I have found is feminine.
Aggie's main is that it is only by assuming monotheism that all the
different names are considered variations upon the name of the same god.
Without assuming monotheism it reads more cleanly as simply different
gods. And when in fact there are different gods with close variants of
these names in the region, within a day or two walking distance, it is
nor reasonable to assume only in bibleland are they variant names for
the same god.
One thing that should be emphasized here. The heavenly hosts is a
tortured translation for a word most simply translated as armies.

I do know that, but it does not necessarily mean armies of /gods/. the
Christians came to belive that it meant the Archangel Michael and his
armies of /angels/.

[Matt Giwer]

Post by Martin Edwards

Post by Matt Giwer
...

Post by Martin Edwards
Do you read Hebrew? If so I'll take your word for it. The
Septuagint has only God, the Lord and the Lord God, though it
mentions the gods of other peoples. Jeremiah does mention the Queen
of Heaven, but only to castigate her worshippers. Interestingly,
women seem to have had a fair degree of equality among these
backsliders, and were among their spokespersons.

The short version of Aggie's is
How in the hell do you get "Lord God" out of "Yahweh Elohim"?
El is god, iM is plural. Yahweh is the partner of Ashara in
Ugaritic texts. Your guess is as good as anyone's as to what oH means.
The most common guess I have found is feminine.
Aggie's main is that it is only by assuming monotheism that all
the different names are considered variations upon the name of the
same god. Without assuming monotheism it reads more cleanly as simply
different gods. And when in fact there are different gods with close
variants of these names in the region, within a day or two walking
distance, it is nor reasonable to assume only in bibleland are they
variant names for the same god.
One thing that should be emphasized here. The heavenly hosts is a
tortured translation for a word most simply translated as armies.

I do know that, but it does not necessarily mean armies of /gods/. the
Christians came to belive that it meant the Archangel Michael and his
armies of /angels/.

The entire Michael thing as well as anything beyond the basic messengers of the
gods, angels/birds/owls, is a totally man-made fiction which is not sourced to
any revelation. All the names come from some 6th c. AD Jewish babbling
coincidentally in Babylon. The 72 names of the angels in some category are
simply all the permutations on the name of some angel or other in Aramaic.

So you have a Michael/army mythology out of no where and on top of that they
claim it is the explanations for the name lord of hosts.

If in fact that were the case the OT folks worshiped Michael as the Lord of Hosts.

For the record Revelation is not only gibberish which we all should agree but
Jewish, not Christian, gibberish. It author was either Stephen King HG Wells
(War of the Worlds) in an earlier incarnation. The ubiquity and popularity of
end of the world stories has obviously been around for many thousand years.

If there were still room in the current religion for people like Hercules the
guy who stops the end of the world would become a god instead of getting the girl.

Nor did it begin or end in ancient times with that. Charles Fort collected many
reports from ancient times forward of people reporting seeing armies marching or
riding horses across the sky.

There were an entire set of reports collected from across the country in 1892
or so of people reporting seeing a flying fancy Victorian house. That one was
traced back to an official Liars Club and its members. There is no reason to
think only a group in that year thought it might be fun to make up such stories.

Randi, as in The Amazing, ran a radio talk show in LA. One day he opened by
saying while driving into work he saw something odd in the sky. He made it up.
By the time the show ended three hours later he was getting long, detailed
descriptions of what was in the sky and they largely agreed with each other.
Everyone was certain it was alien visitors.

Back in those days inventing new gods and new stories about existing ones was
clearly a cottage industry. A similar creativity around this new god would be
expected. Now would we expect the peoples of the middle east to have their own
gods. Nor would it be surprising to have new stories created about them and
their involvement with the Judeans. It was not as though the stories had to make
sense.

[Matt Giwer]

SolomonW wrote:
...

Post by SolomonW
Dever view is that there was an elite priestly Judaism which is the
source of most of the Old Testament which is almost all monotheistic
and a folk Judaism which was not so monotheistic and accepted a female
consort of God.

The problem with Dever is that he is a believer for whom everything must
confirm his religious beliefs.

The only case you can make from the Septuagint is that it was written by the
priests of the Yahweh cult. Their constant whining about the people worshiping
other gods makes it quite clear the people worshiped many gods. NO PLACE in the
entire Septuagint or the later OT version is there an unambiguous statement of
monotheism and only a couple on the subject which have to be tortured to confess
they refer to only one god.

OTOH we have the first of big ten, no other godS before me. Does Dever have to
be beat over the head?

[SolomonW]

In article <481ab9c5$0$5167$***@roadrunner.com>, jull43
@tampabay.REMover.rr.com says...

Post by Matt Giwer
...

Post by SolomonW
Dever view is that there was an elite priestly Judaism which is the
source of most of the Old Testament which is almost all monotheistic
and a folk Judaism which was not so monotheistic and accepted a female
consort of God.

The problem with Dever is that he is a believer for whom everything must
confirm his religious beliefs.

he problem with you is that everything must confirm your non religious
beliefs!
(a)

Post by Matt Giwer
The only case you can make from the Septuagint is that it was written by the
priests of the Yahweh cult. Their constant whining about the people worshiping
other gods makes it quite clear the people worshiped many gods. NO PLACE in the
entire Septuagint or the later OT version is there an unambiguous statement of
monotheism and only a couple on the subject which have to be tortured to confess
they refer to only one god.

Hold that thought!

Post by Matt Giwer
OTOH we have the first of big ten, no other godS before me.

So you have one quote from the bible that proves (a) above is false

Post by Matt Giwer
Does Dever have to
be beat over the head?

He has to be read as he write.

[Matt Giwer]

Post by SolomonW
@tampabay.REMover.rr.com says...

Post by Matt Giwer
...

Post by SolomonW
Dever view is that there was an elite priestly Judaism which is the
source of most of the Old Testament which is almost all monotheistic
and a folk Judaism which was not so monotheistic and accepted a female
consort of God.

The problem with Dever is that he is a believer for whom everything must
confirm his religious beliefs.

he problem with you is that everything must confirm your non religious
beliefs!

Non sequitur. I am not a Scientologist either. That does not lead to a belief
L. Ron Hubbard is a myth. In general whether or not I am religion has no bearing
upon my knowledge that religions do exist whether I follow them or not.

Post by SolomonW
(a)

Post by Matt Giwer
The only case you can make from the Septuagint is that it was written by the
priests of the Yahweh cult. Their constant whining about the people worshiping
other gods makes it quite clear the people worshiped many gods. NO PLACE in the
entire Septuagint or the later OT version is there an unambiguous statement of
monotheism and only a couple on the subject which have to be tortured to confess
they refer to only one god.

Hold that thought!

Post by Matt Giwer
OTOH we have the first of big ten, no other godS before me.

So you have one quote from the bible that proves (a) above is false

That Adoni says none of the other gods should be considered elder to him is
hardly an expression of monotheism.

Post by SolomonW

Post by Matt Giwer
Does Dever have to be beat over the head?

He has to be read as he write.

I have. He makes NO case for his arbitrary time for the supposed elimination of
the Ashara cult. It remains arbitrary. While any one can do as I have done many
times and show she was worshiped in Jerusalem into the early 2nd c. AD.

If you have found any argument from the evidence from him supporting his
presumed timeframe for the elimination of the Ashara cult please summarize it here.

His time frame is after the Greek influence was being felt and the locals
started building cities worth the name. No longer finding sacred places in the
countryside is what we would expect as her temples would migrate to those cities.

[SolomonW]

In article <481d0dfa$0$20191$***@roadrunner.com>, jull43
@tampabay.REMover.rr.com says...

Post by Matt Giwer

Post by SolomonW
@tampabay.REMover.rr.com says...

Post by Matt Giwer
...

Post by SolomonW
Dever view is that there was an elite priestly Judaism which is the
source of most of the Old Testament which is almost all monotheistic
and a folk Judaism which was not so monotheistic and accepted a female
consort of God.

The problem with Dever is that he is a believer for whom everything must
confirm his religious beliefs.

he problem with you is that everything must confirm your non religious
beliefs!

Non sequitur. I am not a Scientologist either. That does not lead to a belief
L. Ron Hubbard is a myth. In general whether or not I am religion has no bearing
upon my knowledge that religions do exist whether I follow them or not.

I suspect otherwise. Plenty of proof of holocaust and yet you deny it.

Post by Matt Giwer

Post by SolomonW
(a)

Post by Matt Giwer
The only case you can make from the Septuagint is that it was written by the
priests of the Yahweh cult. Their constant whining about the people worshiping
other gods makes it quite clear the people worshiped many gods. NO PLACE in the
entire Septuagint or the later OT version is there an unambiguous statement of
monotheism and only a couple on the subject which have to be tortured to confess
they refer to only one god.

Hold that thought!

Post by Matt Giwer
OTOH we have the first of big ten, no other godS before me.

So you have one quote from the bible that proves (a) above is false

That Adoni says none of the other gods should be considered elder to him is
hardly an expression of monotheism.

I know the bible well and I know some parts close to that but I don't
know that particular line, can you name me the number of that verse.

Post by Matt Giwer

Post by SolomonW

Post by Matt Giwer
Does Dever have to be beat over the head?

He has to be read as he write.

I have.

A lie. You have not read the book at all.

Post by Matt Giwer
He makes NO case for his arbitrary time for the supposed elimination of
the Ashara cult. It remains arbitrary. While any one can do as I have done many
times and show she was worshiped in Jerusalem into the early 2nd c. AD.
If you have found any argument from the evidence from him supporting his
presumed timeframe for the elimination of the Ashara cult please summarize it here.
His time frame is after the Greek influence was being felt and the locals
started building cities worth the name. No longer finding sacred places in the
countryside is what we would expect as her temples would migrate to those cities.

He is talking of a period well before that.

[Matt Giwer]

Post by SolomonW
@tampabay.REMover.rr.com says...

Post by Matt Giwer

Post by SolomonW
@tampabay.REMover.rr.com says...

Post by Matt Giwer
...

Post by SolomonW
Dever view is that there was an elite priestly Judaism which is the
source of most of the Old Testament which is almost all monotheistic
and a folk Judaism which was not so monotheistic and accepted a female
consort of God.

The problem with Dever is that he is a believer for whom everything must
confirm his religious beliefs.

he problem with you is that everything must confirm your non religious
beliefs!

Non sequitur. I am not a Scientologist either. That does not lead to a belief
L. Ron Hubbard is a myth. In general whether or not I am religion has no bearing
upon my knowledge that religions do exist whether I follow them or not.

I suspect otherwise. Plenty of proof of holocaust and yet you deny it.

There is no proof of anything outside of math and logic. As I said there is no
physical evidence of gas chambers nor of any mass extermination of Jews.
Evidence means what you can give a exhibit number to and introduce as evidence
in court. Testimony is only permitted to physical evidence. It is not permitted
when there is no physical evidence. But that does not matter as there is no
testimony in court under penalty of perjury to gas chambers.

If you choose to believe in mere stories there are much more plentiful stories
about witches and alien abductions.

That you have chosen to believe that is your business.

If you claim there is physical evidence please recite EXACTLY what convinced
you and why when you were a skeptic in the matter.

Post by SolomonW

Post by Matt Giwer

Post by SolomonW
(a)

Post by Matt Giwer
The only case you can make from the Septuagint is that it was written by the
priests of the Yahweh cult. Their constant whining about the people worshiping
other gods makes it quite clear the people worshiped many gods. NO PLACE in the
entire Septuagint or the later OT version is there an unambiguous statement of
monotheism and only a couple on the subject which have to be tortured to confess
they refer to only one god.

Hold that thought!

Post by Matt Giwer
OTOH we have the first of big ten, no other godS before me.

So you have one quote from the bible that proves (a) above is false

That Adoni says none of the other gods should be considered elder to him is
hardly an expression of monotheism.

I know the bible well and I know some parts close to that but I don't
know that particular line, can you name me the number of that verse.

It is the first commandment in the Jewish version. The word translated as
"before" refers to time not rank.

Post by SolomonW

Post by Matt Giwer

Post by SolomonW

Post by Matt Giwer
Does Dever have to be beat over the head?

He has to be read as he write.

I have.

A lie. You have not read the book at all.

I have read excerpts from his book and some of his articles and interviews on
this subject. If you are saying the book contradicts all the rest he has said
and written please so say.

Post by SolomonW

Post by Matt Giwer
He makes NO case for his arbitrary time for the supposed elimination of
the Ashara cult. It remains arbitrary. While any one can do as I have done many
times and show she was worshiped in Jerusalem into the early 2nd c. AD.
If you have found any argument from the evidence from him supporting his
presumed timeframe for the elimination of the Ashara cult please summarize it here.
His time frame is after the Greek influence was being felt and the locals
started building cities worth the name. No longer finding sacred places in the
countryside is what we would expect as her temples would migrate to those cities.

He is talking of a period well before that.

Just a couple months ago he did a BAR article on house shrines of Ashara and
Yahweh. Go to the website and give a read to the free issue online. His dating
gives NO basis in evidence.

However, you claim that it does meaning you have read it.

Please recite his reasons for dating the disappearance. I find it difficult to
believe you could have forgotten such a critical element in story.

[SolomonW]

In article <48200c60$0$20193$***@roadrunner.com>, jull43
@tampabay.REMover.rr.com says...

Post by Matt Giwer

Post by SolomonW
@tampabay.REMover.rr.com says...

Post by Matt Giwer

Post by SolomonW
@tampabay.REMover.rr.com says...

Post by Matt Giwer
...

Post by SolomonW
Dever view is that there was an elite priestly Judaism which is the
source of most of the Old Testament which is almost all monotheistic
and a folk Judaism which was not so monotheistic and accepted a female
consort of God.

The problem with Dever is that he is a believer for whom everything must
confirm his religious beliefs.

he problem with you is that everything must confirm your non religious
beliefs!

Non sequitur. I am not a Scientologist either. That does not lead to a belief
L. Ron Hubbard is a myth. In general whether or not I am religion has no bearing
upon my knowledge that religions do exist whether I follow them or not.

I suspect otherwise. Plenty of proof of holocaust and yet you deny it.

There is no proof of anything outside of math and logic. As I said there is no
physical evidence of gas chambers nor of any mass extermination of Jews.
Evidence means what you can give a exhibit number to and introduce as evidence
in court. Testimony is only permitted to physical evidence. It is not permitted
when there is no physical evidence. But that does not matter as there is no
testimony in court under penalty of perjury to gas chambers.
If you choose to believe in mere stories there are much more plentiful stories
about witches and alien abductions.
That you have chosen to believe that is your business.
If you claim there is physical evidence please recite EXACTLY what convinced
you and why when you were a skeptic in the matter.

http://www.nizkor.org/

Post by Matt Giwer

Post by SolomonW

Post by Matt Giwer

Post by SolomonW
(a)

Post by Matt Giwer
The only case you can make from the Septuagint is that it was written by the
priests of the Yahweh cult. Their constant whining about the people worshiping
other gods makes it quite clear the people worshiped many gods. NO PLACE in the
entire Septuagint or the later OT version is there an unambiguous statement of
monotheism and only a couple on the subject which have to be tortured to confess
they refer to only one god.

Hold that thought!

Post by Matt Giwer
OTOH we have the first of big ten, no other godS before me.

So you have one quote from the bible that proves (a) above is false

That Adoni says none of the other gods should be considered elder to him is
hardly an expression of monotheism.

I know the bible well and I know some parts close to that but I don't
know that particular line, can you name me the number of that verse.

It is the first commandment in the Jewish version. The word translated as
"before" refers to time not rank.

Rubbish the first commandment in the Jewish version is "I am the Lord
your God"

Post by Matt Giwer

Post by SolomonW

Post by Matt Giwer

Post by SolomonW

Post by Matt Giwer
Does Dever have to be beat over the head?

He has to be read as he write.

I have.

A lie. You have not read the book at all.

I have read excerpts from his book and some of his articles and interviews on
this subject. If you are saying the book contradicts all the rest he has said
and written please so say.

So you admit I am right and you have not read the book!

Post by Matt Giwer

Post by SolomonW

Post by Matt Giwer
He makes NO case for his arbitrary time for the supposed elimination of
the Ashara cult. It remains arbitrary. While any one can do as I have done many
times and show she was worshiped in Jerusalem into the early 2nd c. AD.
If you have found any argument from the evidence from him supporting his
presumed timeframe for the elimination of the Ashara cult please summarize it here.
His time frame is after the Greek influence was being felt and the locals
started building cities worth the name. No longer finding sacred places in the
countryside is what we would expect as her temples would migrate to those cities.

He is talking of a period well before that.

Just a couple months ago he did a BAR article on house shrines of Ashara and
Yahweh. Go to the website and give a read to the free issue online. His dating
gives NO basis in evidence.
However, you claim that it does meaning you have read it.
Please recite his reasons for dating the disappearance. I find it difficult to
believe you could have forgotten such a critical element in story.

My only claim here is the period that Dever is talking about a period
long before the Greeks.

[Agamemnon]

Post by SolomonW
@tampabay.REMover.rr.com says...

Post by Matt Giwer

Post by SolomonW
@tampabay.REMover.rr.com says...

Post by Matt Giwer

Post by SolomonW
@tampabay.REMover.rr.com says...

Post by Matt Giwer
...

Post by SolomonW
Dever view is that there was an elite priestly Judaism which is the
source of most of the Old Testament which is almost all
monotheistic
and a folk Judaism which was not so monotheistic and accepted a female
consort of God.

The problem with Dever is that he is a believer for whom everything must
confirm his religious beliefs.

he problem with you is that everything must confirm your non religious
beliefs!

Non sequitur. I am not a Scientologist either. That does not lead to a belief
L. Ron Hubbard is a myth. In general whether or not I am religion has no bearing
upon my knowledge that religions do exist whether I follow them or not.

I suspect otherwise. Plenty of proof of holocaust and yet you deny it.

There is no proof of anything outside of math and logic. As I said there is no
physical evidence of gas chambers nor of any mass extermination of Jews.
Evidence means what you can give a exhibit number to and introduce as evidence
in court. Testimony is only permitted to physical evidence. It is not permitted
when there is no physical evidence. But that does not matter as there is no
testimony in court under penalty of perjury to gas chambers.
If you choose to believe in mere stories there are much more plentiful stories
about witches and alien abductions.
That you have chosen to believe that is your business.
If you claim there is physical evidence please recite EXACTLY what convinced
you and why when you were a skeptic in the matter.

http://www.nizkor.org/

Post by Matt Giwer

Post by SolomonW

Post by Matt Giwer

Post by SolomonW
(a)

Post by Matt Giwer
The only case you can make from the Septuagint is that it was written by the
priests of the Yahweh cult. Their constant whining about the people worshiping
other gods makes it quite clear the people worshiped many gods. NO PLACE in the
entire Septuagint or the later OT version is there an unambiguous statement of
monotheism and only a couple on the subject which have to be
tortured to confess
they refer to only one god.

Hold that thought!

Post by Matt Giwer
OTOH we have the first of big ten, no other godS before me.

So you have one quote from the bible that proves (a) above is false

That Adoni says none of the other gods should be considered elder to him is
hardly an expression of monotheism.

I know the bible well and I know some parts close to that but I don't
know that particular line, can you name me the number of that verse.

It is the first commandment in the Jewish version. The word translated as
"before" refers to time not rank.

Rubbish the first commandment in the Jewish version is "I am the Lord
your God"

POPPYCOCK! "I am the Lord your God" is not a commandment.
Ex 20:3 Thou shalt have no other Gods before me, is the first commandment.

In the original Greek it reads
Ex 20:3 ouk esontai soi yeoi eteroi plhn emou

Which translates as "For you there are no Gods in front of me."

Now to understand what that means read the line above it in Hebrew.


Ex 20:2 I am Jehovah your god who has brought you out of the land of Egypt,
out of the house of bondage.

And in the original Greek

Ex 20:2 egw eimi kuriov o yeov sou ostiv exhgagon se ek ghv aiguptou ex
oikou douleiav

So what we have is, "I am Jehovah your god who has brought you out of the
land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. For you there are no Gods before
me."

Therse is nothing in the above which remotely suggests that Jehovah is the
only god. In fact verse 2 makes it clear that Jehovah is just one god, and
in particular he is the God who brought the Jews our of Egypt. For you there
are no Gods in front of me indicates that Jehovah should be worshiped as the
primary god and the other Gods as secondary gods, and it clearly accepts
that there are other Gods.

But that is not the end of the story. Lets see what verse 1 says in Hebrew.

Ex 20:1 ¶ And the Gods spake all these words, saying,

and in the original Greek

Ex 20:1 kai elalhsen kuriov pantav touv logouv toutouv legwn

Now clearly the is a conflict since the Greek uses the word Kyrios (which is
the Greek equivalent of Jehovah) whereas the Hebrew uses the word Elohim or
Gods. So how can this conflict be resolved.

Since we know the Jews in their literature made the Gods appear on Earth in
mortal form in the same way as the Greek Gods appeared in Homer's poems lets
translate the text into how it originally appeared and add the missing names
and narrative which has been abridged.

So Moses went down unto the people and spake unto them. "And the Gods
[appeard to me in mortal form .... <snip description of which God appeared
in which form> .... and] Jehovah [taking the shape of Setnakkte] spake all
these words saying. 'I am Jehovah your god who has brought you out of the
land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. For you there are no Gods before
me.'"

And prior to this the text would have read as follows.

So Moses went down unto the people and spake unto them. "And the Kings of
the land appeared to me unprotected .... <snip description of which was
which> ... and Setnakkte spake all these words saying. 'I am Setnakkte who
has brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. I am
Khenty-Heh. For you there are no Kings before me.'"

Khenty-Heh meaning "First One (of millions)" or Proteus in Greek otherwise
known as "On" the name given to Moses as the name of God.

Now look at what the original form of the text actually says.

Setnakkte has made Moses one of his Kings or tribal leaders and he speaks
directly to him not though intermediaries. Moses equal with the Kings under
the authority Setnakte Khenty-Heh or On the King of Kings!

(Note that Merneptah also had the title of Sole One so Jehovah/On could be
referring to him instead, but given the time when this is supposed to have
occurred (1192 BC) Merneptah is supposed to be dead according to the
standard Egyptian chronology)

Post by SolomonW

Post by Matt Giwer

Post by SolomonW

Post by Matt Giwer

Post by SolomonW

Post by Matt Giwer
Does Dever have to be beat over the head?

He has to be read as he write.

I have.

A lie. You have not read the book at all.

I have read excerpts from his book and some of his articles and interviews on
this subject. If you are saying the book contradicts all the rest he has said
and written please so say.

So you admit I am right and you have not read the book!

Post by Matt Giwer

Post by SolomonW

Post by Matt Giwer
He makes NO case for his arbitrary time for the supposed elimination of
the Ashara cult. It remains arbitrary. While any one can do as I have done many
times and show she was worshiped in Jerusalem into the early 2nd c. AD.
If you have found any argument from the evidence from him supporting his
presumed timeframe for the elimination of the Ashara cult please summarize it here.
His time frame is after the Greek influence was being felt and the locals
started building cities worth the name. No longer finding sacred places in the
countryside is what we would expect as her temples would migrate to those cities.

He is talking of a period well before that.

Just a couple months ago he did a BAR article on house shrines of Ashara and
Yahweh. Go to the website and give a read to the free issue online. His dating
gives NO basis in evidence.
However, you claim that it does meaning you have read it.
Please recite his reasons for dating the disappearance. I find it difficult to
believe you could have forgotten such a critical element in story.

My only claim here is the period that Dever is talking about a period
long before the Greeks.

You don't know what you are talking about.

[SolomonW]

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW
@tampabay.REMover.rr.com says...

Post by Matt Giwer

Post by SolomonW
@tampabay.REMover.rr.com says...

Post by Matt Giwer

Post by SolomonW
@tampabay.REMover.rr.com says...

Post by Matt Giwer
...

Post by SolomonW
Dever view is that there was an elite priestly Judaism which is the
source of most of the Old Testament which is almost all monotheistic
and a folk Judaism which was not so monotheistic and accepted a female
consort of God.

The problem with Dever is that he is a believer for whom everything must
confirm his religious beliefs.

he problem with you is that everything must confirm your non religious
beliefs!

Non sequitur. I am not a Scientologist either. That does not lead to a belief
L. Ron Hubbard is a myth. In general whether or not I am religion has
no bearing
upon my knowledge that religions do exist whether I follow them or not.

I suspect otherwise. Plenty of proof of holocaust and yet you deny it.

There is no proof of anything outside of math and logic. As I said there is no
physical evidence of gas chambers nor of any mass extermination of Jews.
Evidence means what you can give a exhibit number to and introduce as evidence
in court. Testimony is only permitted to physical evidence. It is not permitted
when there is no physical evidence. But that does not matter as there is no
testimony in court under penalty of perjury to gas chambers.
If you choose to believe in mere stories there are much more plentiful stories
about witches and alien abductions.
That you have chosen to believe that is your business.
If you claim there is physical evidence please recite EXACTLY what convinced
you and why when you were a skeptic in the matter.

http://www.nizkor.org/

Post by Matt Giwer

Post by SolomonW

Post by Matt Giwer

Post by SolomonW
(a)

Post by Matt Giwer
The only case you can make from the Septuagint is that it was
written by the
priests of the Yahweh cult. Their constant whining about the people
worshiping
other gods makes it quite clear the people worshiped many gods. NO
PLACE in the
entire Septuagint or the later OT version is there an unambiguous
statement of
monotheism and only a couple on the subject which have to be
tortured to confess
they refer to only one god.

Hold that thought!

Post by Matt Giwer
OTOH we have the first of big ten, no other godS before me.

So you have one quote from the bible that proves (a) above is false

That Adoni says none of the other gods should be considered elder to him is
hardly an expression of monotheism.

I know the bible well and I know some parts close to that but I don't
know that particular line, can you name me the number of that verse.

(a)

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Matt Giwer
It is the first commandment in the Jewish version. The word translated as
"before" refers to time not rank.

Rubbish the first commandment in the Jewish version is "I am the Lord
your God"

POPPYCOCK! "I am the Lord your God" is not a commandment.
Ex 20:3 Thou shalt have no other Gods before me, is the first commandment.

Check again the Jewish version as specified by Matt. See (a) above

Post by Agamemnon
In the original Greek it reads
Ex 20:3 ouk esontai soi yeoi eteroi plhn emou
Which translates as "For you there are no Gods in front of me."
Now to understand what that means read the line above it in Hebrew.

Not according to these Septuagint translation.


http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=ex+20%3A3&section=1&it=kjv&oq=Ex%252020%3A2&ot=lxx&nt=byz&new=1
&nb=ex&ng=20&ncc=20

It reads in Greek "ouk esontai soi qeoi eteroi plhn emou" which it translates into
"Thou shalt have no other gods before me."


http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=Ex+20%3A3&section=1&it=kjv&ot=lxx&nt=tr&Enter=Perform+Search

It reads in Greek "ouk esontai soi qeoi eteroi plhn emou" which it translates into
"Thou shalt have no other gods before me."


http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=Ex+20%3A3&section=1&it=kjv&ot=lxx&nt=na&Enter=Perform+Search
It reads in Greek "ouk esontai soi qeoi eteroi plhn emou" which it translates into
"Thou shalt have no other gods before me."



This one does not have the Greek but it does not say what you say either.
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nets/edition/

Post by Agamemnon
Ex 20:2 I am Jehovah your god who has brought you out of the land of Egypt,
out of the house of bondage.
And in the original Greek
Ex 20:2 egw eimi kuriov o yeov sou ostiv exhgagon se ek ghv aiguptou ex
oikou douleiav
So what we have is, "I am Jehovah your god who has brought you out of the
land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. For you there are no Gods before
me."

http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=ex+20%3A2&section=1&it=kjv&oq=Ex%252020%3A3&ot=lxx&nt=na&new=1
&nb=ex&ng=20&ncc=20

States it reads differently to you both in Greek and the English translation. In Greek it states
"egw eimi kuriov o qeov sou ostiv echgagon se ek ghv Aiguptou ec oikou douleiav" which it translates as "I am the
LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage."

Post by Agamemnon
Therse is nothing in the above which remotely suggests that Jehovah is the
only god. In fact verse 2 makes it clear that Jehovah is just one god, and
in particular he is the God who brought the Jews our of Egypt. For you there
are no Gods in front of me indicates that Jehovah should be worshiped as the
primary god and the other Gods as secondary gods, and it clearly accepts
that there are other Gods.
But that is not the end of the story. Lets see what verse 1 says in Hebrew.
Ex 20:1 ¶ And the Gods spake all these words, saying,
and in the original Greek
Ex 20:1 kai elalhsen kuriov pantav touv logouv toutouv legwn

Again it is different on the online version.

http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=ex+20%3A1&section=1&it=kjv&oq=ex%252020%3A2&ot=lxx&nt=na&new=1
&nb=ex&ng=20&ncc=20

20:1 And God spake (8762) all these words, saying (8800) ,

kai elalhsen kuriov pantav touv logouv toutouv legwn



By the way you should study what the pural in Old Hebrew means!

Post by Agamemnon
Now clearly the is a conflict since the Greek uses the word Kyrios (which is
the Greek equivalent of Jehovah) whereas the Hebrew uses the word Elohim or
Gods. So how can this conflict be resolved.
Since we know the Jews in their literature made the Gods appear on Earth in
mortal form in the same way as the Greek Gods appeared in Homer's poems lets
translate the text into how it originally appeared and add the missing names
and narrative which has been abridged.
So Moses went down unto the people and spake unto them. "And the Gods
[appeard to me in mortal form .... <snip description of which God appeared
in which form> .... and] Jehovah [taking the shape of Setnakkte] spake all
these words saying. 'I am Jehovah your god who has brought you out of the
land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. For you there are no Gods before
me.'"

http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=ex+20%3A3&section=1&it=kjv&oq=ex%252020%3A2&ot=lxx&nt=na&new=1
&nb=ex&ng=20&ncc=20

20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

egw eimi kuriov o qeov sou ostiv echgagon se ek ghv Aiguptou ec oikou douleiav


20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

ouk esontai soi qeoi eteroi plhn emou

Post by Agamemnon
And prior to this the text would have read as follows.
So Moses went down unto the people and spake unto them. "And the Kings of
the land appeared to me unprotected .... <snip description of which was
which> ... and Setnakkte spake all these words saying. 'I am Setnakkte who
has brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. I am
Khenty-Heh. For you there are no Kings before me.'"
Khenty-Heh meaning "First One (of millions)" or Proteus in Greek otherwise
known as "On" the name given to Moses as the name of God.
Now look at what the original form of the text actually says.
Setnakkte has made Moses one of his Kings or tribal leaders and he speaks
directly to him not though intermediaries. Moses equal with the Kings under
the authority Setnakte Khenty-Heh or On the King of Kings!
(Note that Merneptah also had the title of Sole One so Jehovah/On could be
referring to him instead, but given the time when this is supposed to have
occurred (1192 BC) Merneptah is supposed to be dead according to the
standard Egyptian chronology)

Post by SolomonW

Post by Matt Giwer

Post by SolomonW

Post by Matt Giwer

Post by SolomonW

Post by Matt Giwer
Does Dever have to be beat over the head?

He has to be read as he write.

I have.

A lie. You have not read the book at all.

I have read excerpts from his book and some of his articles and interviews on
this subject. If you are saying the book contradicts all the rest he has said
and written please so say.

So you admit I am right and you have not read the book!

Post by Matt Giwer

Post by SolomonW

Post by Matt Giwer
He makes NO case for his arbitrary time for the supposed elimination of
the Ashara cult. It remains arbitrary. While any one can do as I have done many
times and show she was worshiped in Jerusalem into the early 2nd c. AD.
If you have found any argument from the evidence from him supporting his
presumed timeframe for the elimination of the Ashara cult please
summarize it here.
His time frame is after the Greek influence was being felt and the locals
started building cities worth the name. No longer finding sacred places in the
countryside is what we would expect as her temples would migrate to
those cities.

He is talking of a period well before that.

Just a couple months ago he did a BAR article on house shrines of Ashara and
Yahweh. Go to the website and give a read to the free issue online. His dating
gives NO basis in evidence.
However, you claim that it does meaning you have read it.
Please recite his reasons for dating the disappearance. I find it difficult to
believe you could have forgotten such a critical element in story.

My only claim here is the period that Dever is talking about a period
long before the Greeks.

You don't know what you are talking about.

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Dever is talking of a period long before the Greeks came to the region.

[Agamemnon]

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW
@tampabay.REMover.rr.com says...

Post by Matt Giwer

Post by SolomonW
@tampabay.REMover.rr.com says...

Post by Matt Giwer

Post by SolomonW
@tampabay.REMover.rr.com says...

Post by Matt Giwer
...

Post by SolomonW
Dever view is that there was an elite priestly Judaism which is the
source of most of the Old Testament which is almost all monotheistic
and a folk Judaism which was not so monotheistic and accepted a female
consort of God.

The problem with Dever is that he is a believer for whom
everything
must
confirm his religious beliefs.

he problem with you is that everything must confirm your non religious
beliefs!

Non sequitur. I am not a Scientologist either. That does not lead to
a
belief
L. Ron Hubbard is a myth. In general whether or not I am religion has
no bearing
upon my knowledge that religions do exist whether I follow them or not.

I suspect otherwise. Plenty of proof of holocaust and yet you deny it.

There is no proof of anything outside of math and logic. As I said
there
is no
physical evidence of gas chambers nor of any mass extermination of Jews.
Evidence means what you can give a exhibit number to and introduce as evidence
in court. Testimony is only permitted to physical evidence. It is not permitted
when there is no physical evidence. But that does not matter as there
is
no
testimony in court under penalty of perjury to gas chambers.
If you choose to believe in mere stories there are much more plentiful stories
about witches and alien abductions.
That you have chosen to believe that is your business.
If you claim there is physical evidence please recite EXACTLY what convinced
you and why when you were a skeptic in the matter.

http://www.nizkor.org/

Post by Matt Giwer

Post by SolomonW

Post by Matt Giwer

Post by SolomonW
(a)

Post by Matt Giwer
The only case you can make from the Septuagint is that it was
written by the
priests of the Yahweh cult. Their constant whining about the people
worshiping
other gods makes it quite clear the people worshiped many gods. NO
PLACE in the
entire Septuagint or the later OT version is there an unambiguous
statement of
monotheism and only a couple on the subject which have to be
tortured to confess
they refer to only one god.

Hold that thought!

Post by Matt Giwer
OTOH we have the first of big ten, no other godS before me.

So you have one quote from the bible that proves (a) above is false

That Adoni says none of the other gods should be considered elder to him is
hardly an expression of monotheism.

I know the bible well and I know some parts close to that but I don't
know that particular line, can you name me the number of that verse.

(a)

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Matt Giwer
It is the first commandment in the Jewish version. The word translated as
"before" refers to time not rank.

Rubbish the first commandment in the Jewish version is "I am the Lord
your God"

POPPYCOCK! "I am the Lord your God" is not a commandment.
Ex 20:3 Thou shalt have no other Gods before me, is the first commandment.

<<<Check again the Jewish version as specified by Matt. See (a) above>>>

The Hebrew version says GODS! ELOHIM. PLURAL!

Post by Agamemnon
In the original Greek it reads
Ex 20:3 ouk esontai soi yeoi eteroi plhn emou
Which translates as "For you there are no Gods in front of me."
Now to understand what that means read the line above it in Hebrew.

<<<Not according to these Septuagint translation. >>>

According to the ORIAGIANAL GREEK is says "For you there are no Gods in
front of me." Learn to speak the language.

ouk esontai soi yeoi eteroi plhn emou

not exist yous gods others infront of-me

Post by Agamemnon
Ex 20:2 I am Jehovah your god who has brought you out of the land of Egypt,
out of the house of bondage.
And in the original Greek
Ex 20:2 egw eimi kuriov o yeov sou ostiv exhgagon se ek ghv aiguptou ex
oikou douleiav
So what we have is, "I am Jehovah your god who has brought you out of the
land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. For you there are no Gods before
me."

<<<States it reads differently to you both in Greek and the English
translation. In Greek it states >>>

I know what it states in Greek. Were are talking what is says in Hebrew.

"I am Jehovah your god who has brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of
the house of bondage. For you there are no Gods before me" is what the
Hebrew states.

Post by Agamemnon
Therse is nothing in the above which remotely suggests that Jehovah is the
only god. In fact verse 2 makes it clear that Jehovah is just one god, and
in particular he is the God who brought the Jews our of Egypt. For you there
are no Gods in front of me indicates that Jehovah should be worshiped as the
primary god and the other Gods as secondary gods, and it clearly accepts
that there are other Gods.
But that is not the end of the story. Lets see what verse 1 says in Hebrew.
Ex 20:1 ¶ And the Gods spake all these words, saying,
and in the original Greek
Ex 20:1 kai elalhsen kuriov pantav touv logouv toutouv legwn

<<<Again it is different on the online version. >>>

NO IT IS NOT! The Hebrew states "And the Gods spake all these words,
saying,"


<<<By the way you should study what the pural in Old Hebrew means!>>>

FOOL! A plural is a plural is a plural and any child can see through your
feeble attempt to retcon the bible by pretending it is singular. How can
Elohim mean God in Ex 20:1 and Gods in Ex 20:3 two lines below it? IT CAN'T
BE SINGULAR! It is a clear PLURAL! Anyone who can read Hebrew and hasn't
been told to read it incorrectly by their priest or rabbi knows this full
well.

The Hebrew says GODS! GET USED TO IT!

Post by Agamemnon
Now clearly the is a conflict since the Greek uses the word Kyrios (which is
the Greek equivalent of Jehovah) whereas the Hebrew uses the word Elohim or
Gods. So how can this conflict be resolved.
Since we know the Jews in their literature made the Gods appear on Earth in
mortal form in the same way as the Greek Gods appeared in Homer's poems lets
translate the text into how it originally appeared and add the missing names
and narrative which has been abridged.
So Moses went down unto the people and spake unto them. "And the Gods
[appeard to me in mortal form .... <snip description of which God appeared
in which form> .... and] Jehovah [taking the shape of Setnakkte] spake all
these words saying. 'I am Jehovah your god who has brought you out of the
land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. For you there are no Gods before
me.'"

So I take it your have no comment to either the above or below.

Post by Agamemnon
And prior to this the text would have read as follows.
So Moses went down unto the people and spake unto them. "And the Kings of
the land appeared to me unprotected .... <snip description of which was
which> ... and Setnakkte spake all these words saying. 'I am Setnakkte who
has brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. I am
Khenty-Heh. For you there are no Kings before me.'"
Khenty-Heh meaning "First One (of millions)" or Proteus in Greek otherwise
known as "On" the name given to Moses as the name of God.
Now look at what the original form of the text actually says.
Setnakkte has made Moses one of his Kings or tribal leaders and he speaks
directly to him not though intermediaries. Moses equal with the Kings under
the authority Setnakte Khenty-Heh or On the King of Kings!
(Note that Merneptah also had the title of Sole One so Jehovah/On could be
referring to him instead, but given the time when this is supposed to have
occurred (1192 BC) Merneptah is supposed to be dead according to the
standard Egyptian chronology)

Post by SolomonW

Post by Matt Giwer

Post by SolomonW

Post by Matt Giwer

Post by SolomonW

Post by Matt Giwer
Does Dever have to be beat over the head?

He has to be read as he write.

I have.

A lie. You have not read the book at all.

I have read excerpts from his book and some of his articles and interviews on
this subject. If you are saying the book contradicts all the rest he
has
said
and written please so say.

So you admit I am right and you have not read the book!

Post by Matt Giwer

Post by SolomonW

Post by Matt Giwer
He makes NO case for his arbitrary time for the supposed elimination of
the Ashara cult. It remains arbitrary. While any one can do as I
have
done many
times and show she was worshiped in Jerusalem into the early 2nd c. AD.
If you have found any argument from the evidence from him supporting his
presumed timeframe for the elimination of the Ashara cult please
summarize it here.
His time frame is after the Greek influence was being felt and the locals
started building cities worth the name. No longer finding sacred places in the
countryside is what we would expect as her temples would migrate to
those cities.

He is talking of a period well before that.

Just a couple months ago he did a BAR article on house shrines of
Ashara
and
Yahweh. Go to the website and give a read to the free issue online. His dating
gives NO basis in evidence.
However, you claim that it does meaning you have read it.
Please recite his reasons for dating the disappearance. I find it difficult to
believe you could have forgotten such a critical element in story.

My only claim here is the period that Dever is talking about a period
long before the Greeks.

You don't know what you are talking about.

<<<Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Dever is talking of a period long before the Greeks came to the region.>>>

The Greeks were in the region since at least 1750 BC. Adam does not reign
until 1738 BC +18/-10 years according to the bible's own chronology. Adam
post dates the reign of the Phoenician king Elioun who the Jews worship as
the God Elyon, the God of their temple in Jerusalem. He is contemporary to
Epigeius or Baal Shamen, known to the Greeks as Zeus Ouranios, and accoring
to Philo one and the same person.

[Martin Edwards]

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Agamemnon
In the original Greek it reads
Ex 20:3 ouk esontai soi yeoi eteroi plhn emou
Which translates as "For you there are no Gods in front of me."
Now to understand what that means read the line above it in Hebrew.

<<<Not according to these Septuagint translation. >>>
According to the ORIAGIANAL GREEK is says "For you there are no Gods in
front of me." Learn to speak the language.
ouk esontai soi yeoi eteroi plhn emou
not exist yous gods others infront of-me

Why do you use a transliteration based on the Erasmic pronunciation when
you believe that Ancient Greek was pronounced like Modern Greek? In
fact the pronunciation was transitional at the time of the Septuagint,
but let's pretend that it was in place as it was, more or less by the
time of the New Testament. The above could be rendered:

Ouk esonde si thei eteri plin emou.

Incidentally, for Bible Greek, capitals are customary and "Q" is more
usual for theta. Bible scholars are an inversion of your good self:
they think that Bible Greek was pronounced like Classical Greek.

[Agamemnon]

Post by Martin Edwards

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Agamemnon
In the original Greek it reads
Ex 20:3 ouk esontai soi yeoi eteroi plhn emou
Which translates as "For you there are no Gods in front of me."
Now to understand what that means read the line above it in Hebrew.

<<<Not according to these Septuagint translation. >>>
According to the ORIAGIANAL GREEK is says "For you there are no Gods in
front of me." Learn to speak the language.
ouk esontai soi yeoi eteroi plhn emou
not exist yous gods others infront of-me

Why do you use a transliteration based on the Erasmic pronunciation when

FOOL! The above text is a transliteration in Latin script.

Post by Martin Edwards
you believe that Ancient Greek was pronounced like Modern Greek? In fact
the pronunciation was transitional at the time of the Septuagint, but
let's pretend that it was in place as it was, more or less by the time of
Ouk esonde si thei eteri plin emou.
Incidentally, for Bible Greek, capitals are customary and "Q" is more

IDIOT! The OLB Greek font doesn't work that way.

Post by Martin Edwards
usual for theta. Bible scholars are an inversion of your good self: they
think that Bible Greek was pronounced like Classical Greek.

Classical Greek was pronounced exactly like modern Greek as was Homeric.
Read Dionysios Thraikos.

http://www.enthymia.co.uk/Greek.htm

http://www.bsw.org/?l=72081&a=Art06.html

http://www.hs-augsburg.de/~harsch/graeca/Chronologia/S_ante02/DionysiosThrax/dio_tech.html

Post by Martin Edwards
--
Corporate society looks after everything. All it asks of anyone, all it
has ever asked of anyone, is that they do not interfere with management
decisions. -From “Rollerball”

[Martin Edwards]

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Martin Edwards

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Agamemnon
In the original Greek it reads
Ex 20:3 ouk esontai soi yeoi eteroi plhn emou
Which translates as "For you there are no Gods in front of me."
Now to understand what that means read the line above it in Hebrew.

<<<Not according to these Septuagint translation. >>>
According to the ORIAGIANAL GREEK is says "For you there are no Gods
in front of me." Learn to speak the language.
ouk esontai soi yeoi eteroi plhn emou
not exist yous gods others infront of-me

Why do you use a transliteration based on the Erasmic pronunciation when

FOOL! The above text is a transliteration in Latin script.

I know that. Please answer the question.

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Martin Edwards
you believe that Ancient Greek was pronounced like Modern Greek? In
fact the pronunciation was transitional at the time of the Septuagint,
but let's pretend that it was in place as it was, more or less by the
Ouk esonde si thei eteri plin emou.
Incidentally, for Bible Greek, capitals are customary and "Q" is more

IDIOT! The OLB Greek font doesn't work that way.

That is exactly how it works. You have clearly misuunderstood the
situation. Certain choices are arbitrary, but they are followed by
everyone who knows what he is talking about.

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Martin Edwards
they think that Bible Greek was pronounced like Classical Greek.

Classical Greek was pronounced exactly like modern Greek as was Homeric.
Read Dionysios Thraikos.

Who lived at a time when the modern pronunciation had emerged. Read
Horrocks.

[Agamemnon]

Post by Martin Edwards

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Martin Edwards

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Agamemnon
In the original Greek it reads
Ex 20:3 ouk esontai soi yeoi eteroi plhn emou
Which translates as "For you there are no Gods in front of me."
Now to understand what that means read the line above it in Hebrew.

<<<Not according to these Septuagint translation. >>>
According to the ORIAGIANAL GREEK is says "For you there are no Gods in
front of me." Learn to speak the language.
ouk esontai soi yeoi eteroi plhn emou
not exist yous gods others infront of-me

Why do you use a transliteration based on the Erasmic pronunciation when

FOOL! The above text is a transliteration in Latin script.

I know that. Please answer the question.

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Martin Edwards
you believe that Ancient Greek was pronounced like Modern Greek? In
fact the pronunciation was transitional at the time of the Septuagint,
but let's pretend that it was in place as it was, more or less by the
Ouk esonde si thei eteri plin emou.
Incidentally, for Bible Greek, capitals are customary and "Q" is more

IDIOT! The OLB Greek font doesn't work that way.

That is exactly how it works. You have clearly misuunderstood the

NO IT DOESN'T.

Post by Martin Edwards
situation. Certain choices are arbitrary, but they are followed by
everyone who knows what he is talking about.

IDIOT! Anyone can install the OLB and see you are talking out of your arse.

Post by Martin Edwards

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Martin Edwards
they think that Bible Greek was pronounced like Classical Greek.

Classical Greek was pronounced exactly like modern Greek as was Homeric.
Read Dionysios Thraikos.

Who lived at a time when the modern pronunciation had emerged. Read
Horrocks.

IDIOT!

Modern pronouncation had been long established Dionysios Thraikos was
writing otherwise it would have been impossible for him to have written what
he did, which is completely based and only makes sense using modern
pronunciation.

Assuming modern pronunciation existed in 100 BC and that pronunciation was
completely different in 1600 BC when the Mycenaean's came to the Peloponnese
and began using Linear B which has indeterminate pronunciation for the
consonants, the turning point when modern pronunciation became dominant over
any other kind of pronunciation would have been in 850 BC or leaning towards
an earlier date. That means that not only was Classical Greek pronounced
like modern Greek but so was Homeric Greek and this is what the
archaeological evidence of inscriptions and the written record clearly
shows.

http://www.bsw.org/?l=72081&a=Art06.html

[Martin Edwards]

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Martin Edwards

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Martin Edwards

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Agamemnon
In the original Greek it reads
Ex 20:3 ouk esontai soi yeoi eteroi plhn emou
Which translates as "For you there are no Gods in front of me."
Now to understand what that means read the line above it in Hebrew.

<<<Not according to these Septuagint translation. >>>
According to the ORIAGIANAL GREEK is says "For you there are no
Gods in front of me." Learn to speak the language.
ouk esontai soi yeoi eteroi plhn emou
not exist yous gods others infront of-me

Why do you use a transliteration based on the Erasmic pronunciation when

FOOL! The above text is a transliteration in Latin script.

I know that. Please answer the question.

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Martin Edwards
you believe that Ancient Greek was pronounced like Modern Greek? In
fact the pronunciation was transitional at the time of the
Septuagint, but let's pretend that it was in place as it was, more
Ouk esonde si thei eteri plin emou.
Incidentally, for Bible Greek, capitals are customary and "Q" is more

IDIOT! The OLB Greek font doesn't work that way.

That is exactly how it works. You have clearly misuunderstood the

NO IT DOESN'T.

Post by Martin Edwards
situation. Certain choices are arbitrary, but they are followed by
everyone who knows what he is talking about.

IDIOT! Anyone can install the OLB and see you are talking out of your arse.

Post by Martin Edwards

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Martin Edwards
they think that Bible Greek was pronounced like Classical Greek.

Classical Greek was pronounced exactly like modern Greek as was
Homeric. Read Dionysios Thraikos.

Who lived at a time when the modern pronunciation had emerged. Read
Horrocks.

IDIOT!
Modern pronouncation had been long established Dionysios Thraikos was
writing otherwise it would have been impossible for him to have written
what he did, which is completely based and only makes sense using modern
pronunciation.
Assuming modern pronunciation existed in 100 BC and that pronunciation
was completely different in 1600 BC when the Mycenaean's came to the
Peloponnese and began using Linear B which has indeterminate
pronunciation for the consonants, the turning point when modern
pronunciation became dominant over any other kind of pronunciation would
have been in 850 BC or leaning towards an earlier date. That means that
not only was Classical Greek pronounced like modern Greek but so was
Homeric Greek and this is what the archaeological evidence of
inscriptions and the written record clearly shows.
http://www.bsw.org/?l=72081&a=Art06.html

This is a rerun, but you have never answered it. Why were there six
vowels and apparent diphthongs pronounced "ee", when "i" would have done
the job on its own? Why are "au" and "eu" called diphthongs even today
when they are not diphthongs? What was the sound of the rough
breathing? If it had none, why was it there? Why do neither Homer or
Classical poetry scan in the modern pronunciation? There is no point
bleating "they do" like a megaphone bellowing the same lie over and over
again. They don't.

[Agamemnon]

Post by Martin Edwards

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Martin Edwards

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Martin Edwards

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Agamemnon
In the original Greek it reads
Ex 20:3 ouk esontai soi yeoi eteroi plhn emou
Which translates as "For you there are no Gods in front of me."
Now to understand what that means read the line above it in Hebrew.

<<<Not according to these Septuagint translation. >>>
According to the ORIAGIANAL GREEK is says "For you there are no Gods
in front of me." Learn to speak the language.
ouk esontai soi yeoi eteroi plhn emou
not exist yous gods others infront of-me

Why do you use a transliteration based on the Erasmic pronunciation when

FOOL! The above text is a transliteration in Latin script.

I know that. Please answer the question.

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Martin Edwards
you believe that Ancient Greek was pronounced like Modern Greek? In
fact the pronunciation was transitional at the time of the Septuagint,
but let's pretend that it was in place as it was, more or less by the
Ouk esonde si thei eteri plin emou.
Incidentally, for Bible Greek, capitals are customary and "Q" is more

IDIOT! The OLB Greek font doesn't work that way.

That is exactly how it works. You have clearly misuunderstood the

NO IT DOESN'T.

Post by Martin Edwards
situation. Certain choices are arbitrary, but they are followed by
everyone who knows what he is talking about.

IDIOT! Anyone can install the OLB and see you are talking out of your arse.

Post by Martin Edwards

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Martin Edwards
they think that Bible Greek was pronounced like Classical Greek.

Classical Greek was pronounced exactly like modern Greek as was
Homeric. Read Dionysios Thraikos.

Who lived at a time when the modern pronunciation had emerged. Read
Horrocks.

IDIOT!
Modern pronouncation had been long established Dionysios Thraikos was
writing otherwise it would have been impossible for him to have written
what he did, which is completely based and only makes sense using modern
pronunciation.
Assuming modern pronunciation existed in 100 BC and that pronunciation
was completely different in 1600 BC when the Mycenaean's came to the
Peloponnese and began using Linear B which has indeterminate
pronunciation for the consonants, the turning point when modern
pronunciation became dominant over any other kind of pronunciation would
have been in 850 BC or leaning towards an earlier date. That means that
not only was Classical Greek pronounced like modern Greek but so was
Homeric Greek and this is what the archaeological evidence of
inscriptions and the written record clearly shows.
http://www.bsw.org/?l=72081&a=Art06.html

This is a rerun, but you have never answered it. Why were there six
vowels and apparent diphthongs pronounced "ee", when "i" would have done
the job on its own?

Because the alphabet was brought to Greece by Cadmus in 1430 BC. By Homer's
time in 900 BC the modern pronunciation was on the verge of becoming
dominant but Homer had already written his work using spelling that dated
back to 1430 BC and that spelling remains to this day. By the start of the
Classical era 75% of the population were using modern pronunciation for the
diphthongs and for the i sounds.

Post by Martin Edwards
Why are "au" and "eu" called diphthongs even today when they are not
diphthongs? What was the sound of the rough

Yes they are dipthongs. You clearly don't undersatnad the historical meaning
of the Greek word difthonggoi.

Post by Martin Edwards
What was the sound of the rough breathing?

Read Dionysios Thraikos.

Bare was k, p, t, (kappa, pi, taf), Rough breating was th, f, h (theta, fi,
hi). Middle brathing was v, gh, dh (vita, gamma, delta) since v was between
p and f, g is between k and h, and d is between th and t.

The above only makes sense using modern Greek pronunciation. k, p, t, are
short sharp percussive sounds and cannot be sustained, th, f, h are breaths
though constrictions which are sustainable, hence the name rough which
describes the rough sound they make, when the two sounds are combined in the
ways described above modulations occurs and hence the middle sounds of v, g,
d.

Post by Martin Edwards
If it had none, why was it there? Why do neither Homer or Classical poetry
scan in the modern pronunciation? There is no point

Homer and Classical poetry only scan properly in modern pronunciation. In
the Erasmian pronunciation they are completely unintelligable and sound
hideous.

Post by Martin Edwards
bleating "they do" like a megaphone bellowing the same lie over and over
again. They don't.

They do. Listen to a Greek perform them not an Englishman.

[Matt Giwer]

SolomonW wrote:
...

Post by SolomonW
Check again the Jewish version as specified by Matt. See (a) above

I gave the preferred English translation from the Orthodox Jewish prayer book
which leaves Adoni as is without translating it as Lord. Now I have no idea why
people do what they do much less when they decided to do it.

But as I was talking about English translations at least I did not translate it
for them.

...

[Agamemnon]

Post by Matt Giwer
...

Post by SolomonW
Check again the Jewish version as specified by Matt. See (a) above

I gave the preferred English translation from the Orthodox Jewish prayer
book which leaves Adoni as is without translating it as Lord. Now I have
no idea why

No it doesn't. The Jews are forbidden from saying Jehovah on pain of death.
Remember the Monty Python sketch in The Life of Brian? The Hebrew says
Jehovah.

Post by Matt Giwer
people do what they do much less when they decided to do it.
But as I was talking about English translations at least I did not
translate it for them.
...
--
The purpose of Zionism is to subborn Jews to treason.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3995
http://www.haaretz.com What is Israel really like? http://www.jpost.com a7

[Matt Giwer]

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Matt Giwer
...

Post by SolomonW
Check again the Jewish version as specified by Matt. See (a) above

I gave the preferred English translation from the Orthodox Jewish
prayer book which leaves Adoni as is without translating it as Lord.
Now I have no idea why

No it doesn't. The Jews are forbidden from saying Jehovah on pain of
death. Remember the Monty Python sketch in The Life of Brian? The Hebrew
says Jehovah.

I did not keep the URLs. I collected the preferred English as it was presented
on websites that were not of the whacko variety. Part of the exercise was also
regarding the number of commandments and how they were separated or joined.
Unfortunately even if I had kept the URLs the USB drive did not survive the fall
from the top of the computer to the desk.

I will be recreating the collection one of these days.

However I don't quite see your point. It showed me a comparison between "I am
the lord thy god" and "I am Adoni thy god." Now one may go into all the
historical technicalities of translation but people believe all kinds of strange
things from holy books even the literal words when they are contrary to intent.

[Agamemnon]

Post by Matt Giwer

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Matt Giwer
...

Post by SolomonW
Check again the Jewish version as specified by Matt. See (a) above

I gave the preferred English translation from the Orthodox Jewish prayer
book which leaves Adoni as is without translating it as Lord. Now I have
no idea why

No it doesn't. The Jews are forbidden from saying Jehovah on pain of
death. Remember the Monty Python sketch in The Life of Brian? The Hebrew
says Jehovah.

I did not keep the URLs. I collected the preferred English as it was
presented on websites that were not of the whacko variety. Part of the
exercise was also regarding the number of commandments and how they were
separated or joined. Unfortunately even if I had kept the URLs the USB
drive did not survive the fall from the top of the computer to the desk.
I will be recreating the collection one of these days.
However I don't quite see your point. It showed me a comparison between "I
am the lord thy god" and "I am Adoni thy god." Now one may go into all the
historical technicalities of translation but people believe all kinds of
strange things from holy books even the literal words when they are
contrary to intent.

Instead of saying Jehovah as it says in the bible the Jews are conditioned
to say Adoni in it's place.

[Matt Giwer]

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Matt Giwer

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Matt Giwer
...

Post by SolomonW
Check again the Jewish version as specified by Matt. See (a) above

I gave the preferred English translation from the Orthodox Jewish
prayer book which leaves Adoni as is without translating it as Lord.
Now I have no idea why

No it doesn't. The Jews are forbidden from saying Jehovah on pain of
death. Remember the Monty Python sketch in The Life of Brian? The
Hebrew says Jehovah.

I did not keep the URLs. I collected the preferred English as it was
presented on websites that were not of the whacko variety. Part of the
exercise was also regarding the number of commandments and how they
were separated or joined. Unfortunately even if I had kept the URLs
the USB drive did not survive the fall from the top of the computer to
the desk.
I will be recreating the collection one of these days.
However I don't quite see your point. It showed me a comparison
between "I am the lord thy god" and "I am Adoni thy god." Now one may
go into all the historical technicalities of translation but people
believe all kinds of strange things from holy books even the literal
words when they are contrary to intent.

Instead of saying Jehovah as it says in the bible the Jews are
conditioned to say Adoni in it's place.

OR instead of Adon/Lord it can also be Adonis/Attis/Osiris/etc. Adonis being
the husband of Aphrodite/Astarte/Isis/etc. and that connects back to
Yahweh/Ashara of Ugarit/Palestine.

Any prohibition is against the sacred or maybe even secret name, Yahweh, but
not against the common name Adonis.

In this way all the gods which influenced the region are included.

And we have at least the names other than Yahweh (for lack of surviving
mythology) dying and going to hell and being resurrected we can add Jesus as
another name of this same god but we have a lot more than a trinity.

[Martin Edwards]

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Matt Giwer

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Matt Giwer
...

Post by SolomonW
Check again the Jewish version as specified by Matt. See (a) above

I gave the preferred English translation from the Orthodox Jewish
prayer book which leaves Adoni as is without translating it as Lord.
Now I have no idea why

No it doesn't. The Jews are forbidden from saying Jehovah on pain of
death. Remember the Monty Python sketch in The Life of Brian? The
Hebrew says Jehovah.

I did not keep the URLs. I collected the preferred English as it was
presented on websites that were not of the whacko variety. Part of the
exercise was also regarding the number of commandments and how they
were separated or joined. Unfortunately even if I had kept the URLs
the USB drive did not survive the fall from the top of the computer to
the desk.
I will be recreating the collection one of these days.
However I don't quite see your point. It showed me a comparison
between "I am the lord thy god" and "I am Adoni thy god." Now one may
go into all the historical technicalities of translation but people
believe all kinds of strange things from holy books even the literal
words when they are contrary to intent.

Instead of saying Jehovah as it says in the bible the Jews are
conditioned to say Adoni in it's place.

It only says Jehovah in English translations. It is a misreading.

[Agamemnon]

Post by Martin Edwards

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Matt Giwer

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Matt Giwer
...

Post by SolomonW
Check again the Jewish version as specified by Matt. See (a) above

I gave the preferred English translation from the Orthodox Jewish
prayer book which leaves Adoni as is without translating it as Lord.
Now I have no idea why

No it doesn't. The Jews are forbidden from saying Jehovah on pain of
death. Remember the Monty Python sketch in The Life of Brian? The
Hebrew says Jehovah.

I did not keep the URLs. I collected the preferred English as it was
presented on websites that were not of the whacko variety. Part of the
exercise was also regarding the number of commandments and how they were
separated or joined. Unfortunately even if I had kept the URLs the USB
drive did not survive the fall from the top of the computer to the desk.
I will be recreating the collection one of these days.
However I don't quite see your point. It showed me a comparison between
"I am the lord thy god" and "I am Adoni thy god." Now one may go into
all the historical technicalities of translation but people believe all
kinds of strange things from holy books even the literal words when they
are contrary to intent.

Instead of saying Jehovah as it says in the bible the Jews are
conditioned to say Adoni in it's place.

It only says Jehovah in English translations. It is a misreading.

Not it isn't.

It says Jehovah in the original Hebrew text. READ IT IN HEBREW!

[Martin Edwards]

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Martin Edwards

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Matt Giwer

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Matt Giwer
...

Post by SolomonW
Check again the Jewish version as specified by Matt. See (a) above

I gave the preferred English translation from the Orthodox Jewish
prayer book which leaves Adoni as is without translating it as
Lord. Now I have no idea why

No it doesn't. The Jews are forbidden from saying Jehovah on pain
of death. Remember the Monty Python sketch in The Life of Brian?
The Hebrew says Jehovah.

I did not keep the URLs. I collected the preferred English as it was
presented on websites that were not of the whacko variety. Part of
the exercise was also regarding the number of commandments and how
they were separated or joined. Unfortunately even if I had kept the
URLs the USB drive did not survive the fall from the top of the
computer to the desk.
I will be recreating the collection one of these days.
However I don't quite see your point. It showed me a comparison
between "I am the lord thy god" and "I am Adoni thy god." Now one
may go into all the historical technicalities of translation but
people believe all kinds of strange things from holy books even the
literal words when they are contrary to intent.

Instead of saying Jehovah as it says in the bible the Jews are
conditioned to say Adoni in it's place.

It only says Jehovah in English translations. It is a misreading.

Not it isn't.
It says Jehovah in the original Hebrew text. READ IT IN HEBREW!

As you well know, or anyway I hope you do, Hebrew has consonants only.

[SolomonW]

In article <4822a274$0$20196$***@roadrunner.com>, jull43
@tampabay.REMover.rr.com says...

Post by Matt Giwer
...

Post by SolomonW
Check again the Jewish version as specified by Matt. See (a) above

I gave the preferred English translation from the Orthodox Jewish prayer book
which leaves Adoni as is without translating it as Lord. Now I have no idea why
people do what they do much less when they decided to do it.
But as I was talking about English translations at least I did not translate it
for them.
...

There is no Orthodox Jewish prayer book there are many different groups
that are lumped together as Orthodox who have different prayer books.

[Matt Giwer]

Post by SolomonW
@tampabay.REMover.rr.com says...

Post by Matt Giwer
...

Post by SolomonW
Check again the Jewish version as specified by Matt. See (a) above

I gave the preferred English translation from the Orthodox Jewish prayer book
which leaves Adoni as is without translating it as Lord. Now I have no idea why
people do what they do much less when they decided to do it.
But as I was talking about English translations at least I did not translate it
for them.

There is no Orthodox Jewish prayer book there are many different groups
that are lumped together as Orthodox who have different prayer books.

There is not? There have been several articles posted here that reference the
revision of the Reform prayer book with its appendices saying to the effect that
everything prior the separation of Judea is considered mythical. Not quite a
direct response but close enough.

It has been a few years but it was described as the Orthodox prayer book. The
description of the Reform book was that it was the one used in synagogue by the
congregates. I assumed it was like the hymnals Protestants have in the pews.

So tell me more.

[Matt Giwer]

Post by SolomonW
@tampabay.REMover.rr.com says...

Post by Matt Giwer

Post by SolomonW
@tampabay.REMover.rr.com says...

Post by Matt Giwer

Post by SolomonW
@tampabay.REMover.rr.com says...

Post by Matt Giwer
...

Post by SolomonW
Dever view is that there was an elite priestly Judaism which is the
source of most of the Old Testament which is almost all monotheistic
and a folk Judaism which was not so monotheistic and accepted a female
consort of God.

The problem with Dever is that he is a believer for whom everything must
confirm his religious beliefs.

he problem with you is that everything must confirm your non religious
beliefs!

Non sequitur. I am not a Scientologist either. That does not lead to a belief
L. Ron Hubbard is a myth. In general whether or not I am religion has no bearing
upon my knowledge that religions do exist whether I follow them or not.

I suspect otherwise. Plenty of proof of holocaust and yet you deny it.

There is no proof of anything outside of math and logic. As I said there is no
physical evidence of gas chambers nor of any mass extermination of Jews.
Evidence means what you can give a exhibit number to and introduce as evidence
in court. Testimony is only permitted to physical evidence. It is not permitted
when there is no physical evidence. But that does not matter as there is no
testimony in court under penalty of perjury to gas chambers.
If you choose to believe in mere stories there are much more plentiful stories
about witches and alien abductions.
That you have chosen to believe that is your business.
If you claim there is physical evidence please recite EXACTLY what convinced
you and why when you were a skeptic in the matter.

http://www.nizkor.org/

No physical evidence there. What are you, retarded?

Post by SolomonW

Post by Matt Giwer

Post by SolomonW

Post by Matt Giwer

Post by SolomonW
(a)

Post by Matt Giwer
The only case you can make from the Septuagint is that it was written by the
priests of the Yahweh cult. Their constant whining about the people worshiping
other gods makes it quite clear the people worshiped many gods. NO PLACE in the
entire Septuagint or the later OT version is there an unambiguous statement of
monotheism and only a couple on the subject which have to be tortured to confess
they refer to only one god.

Hold that thought!

Post by Matt Giwer
OTOH we have the first of big ten, no other godS before me.

So you have one quote from the bible that proves (a) above is false

That Adoni says none of the other gods should be considered elder to him is
hardly an expression of monotheism.

I know the bible well and I know some parts close to that but I don't
know that particular line, can you name me the number of that verse.

It is the first commandment in the Jewish version. The word translated as
"before" refers to time not rank.

Rubbish the first commandment in the Jewish version is "I am the Lord
your God"

I am giving you what the Judeans decided should be the translation of the Greek
Septuagint. I have no interest in the the English. However the German the word
used instead of the English "before" means earlier. It shouldn't make much
effort to find the proper usage of before in the time of King James was temporal
not positional.

Post by SolomonW

Post by Matt Giwer

Post by SolomonW

Post by Matt Giwer

Post by SolomonW

Post by Matt Giwer
Does Dever have to be beat over the head?

He has to be read as he write.

I have.

A lie. You have not read the book at all.

I have read excerpts from his book and some of his articles and interviews on
this subject. If you are saying the book contradicts all the rest he has said
and written please so say.

So you admit I am right and you have not read the book!

I am saying you are claiming his book contradicts everything else he has said
and written. If that is the case it is not worth reading the book.

Post by SolomonW

Post by Matt Giwer

Post by SolomonW

Post by Matt Giwer
He makes NO case for his arbitrary time for the supposed elimination of
the Ashara cult. It remains arbitrary. While any one can do as I have done many
times and show she was worshiped in Jerusalem into the early 2nd c. AD.
If you have found any argument from the evidence from him supporting his
presumed timeframe for the elimination of the Ashara cult please summarize it here.
His time frame is after the Greek influence was being felt and the locals
started building cities worth the name. No longer finding sacred places in the
countryside is what we would expect as her temples would migrate to those cities.

He is talking of a period well before that.

Just a couple months ago he did a BAR article on house shrines of Ashara and
Yahweh. Go to the website and give a read to the free issue online. His dating
gives NO basis in evidence.
However, you claim that it does meaning you have read it.
Please recite his reasons for dating the disappearance. I find it difficult to
believe you could have forgotten such a critical element in story.

My only claim here is the period that Dever is talking about a period
long before the Greeks.

As I have shown BT STRT, the Temple of Astarte, is mentioned as being in 1st c.
AD Jerusalem. Why do you have a problem with that? There is no explicit
statement of monotheism prior to Islam.

[Martin Edwards]

Post by Matt Giwer

Post by SolomonW
@tampabay.REMover.rr.com says...

Post by Matt Giwer

Post by SolomonW
@tampabay.REMover.rr.com says...

Post by Matt Giwer

Post by SolomonW
@tampabay.REMover.rr.com says...

Post by Matt Giwer
...

Post by SolomonW
Dever view is that there was an elite priestly Judaism which is
the source of most of the Old Testament which is almost all
monotheistic
and a folk Judaism which was not so monotheistic and accepted a
female consort of God.

The problem with Dever is that he is a believer for whom
everything must confirm his religious beliefs.

he problem with you is that everything must confirm your non
religious beliefs!

Non sequitur. I am not a Scientologist either. That does not
lead to a belief L. Ron Hubbard is a myth. In general whether or
not I am religion has no bearing upon my knowledge that religions
do exist whether I follow them or not.

I suspect otherwise. Plenty of proof of holocaust and yet you deny it.

There is no proof of anything outside of math and logic. As I
said there is no physical evidence of gas chambers nor of any mass
extermination of Jews. Evidence means what you can give a exhibit
number to and introduce as evidence in court. Testimony is only
permitted to physical evidence. It is not permitted when there is no
physical evidence. But that does not matter as there is no testimony
in court under penalty of perjury to gas chambers.
If you choose to believe in mere stories there are much more
plentiful stories about witches and alien abductions.
That you have chosen to believe that is your business.
If you claim there is physical evidence please recite EXACTLY
what convinced you and why when you were a skeptic in the matter.

http://www.nizkor.org/

No physical evidence there. What are you, retarded?

Post by SolomonW

Post by Matt Giwer

Post by SolomonW

Post by Matt Giwer

Post by SolomonW
(a)

Post by Matt Giwer
The only case you can make from the Septuagint is that it was
written by the priests of the Yahweh cult. Their constant whining
about the people worshiping other gods makes it quite clear the
people worshiped many gods. NO PLACE in the entire Septuagint or
the later OT version is there an unambiguous statement of
monotheism and only a couple on the subject which have to be
tortured to confess they refer to only one god.

Hold that thought!

Post by Matt Giwer
OTOH we have the first of big ten, no other godS before me.

So you have one quote from the bible that proves (a) above is false

That Adoni says none of the other gods should be considered
elder to him is hardly an expression of monotheism.

I know the bible well and I know some parts close to that but I
don't know that particular line, can you name me the number of that
verse.

It is the first commandment in the Jewish version. The word
translated as "before" refers to time not rank.

Rubbish the first commandment in the Jewish version is "I am the Lord
your God"

I am giving you what the Judeans decided should be the translation
of the Greek Septuagint. I have no interest in the the English. However
the German the word used instead of the English "before" means earlier.
It shouldn't make much effort to find the proper usage of before in the
time of King James was temporal not positional.

The problem being that it does not make sense. Shall? Before in time?

[Matt Giwer]

...

Post by Martin Edwards

Post by Matt Giwer
I am giving you what the Judeans decided should be the translation
of the Greek Septuagint. I have no interest in the the English.
However the German the word used instead of the English "before" means
earlier. It shouldn't make much effort to find the proper usage of
before in the time of King James was temporal not positional.

The problem being that it does not make sense. Shall? Before in time?

Amun was the father of the gods and created the rest. When depicted with the
animal head it is that of a ram as in the Shofar horn. He made the first man and
woman from clay as with Adam and Eve. There are other aspects of Amun which
match with bible stories. Back then people told stories about their gods. There
was no concept of doctrine. There were just popular stories associated with
different ones. Egypt once ruled the region. Clearly the locals were polytheists.

Because Amun created the other gods he was before them in time.

You shall not hold any god is older than me. It is only one line. It could also
have been 'senior to me' but then does senior mean age or rank?

There god ranks above the other gods. In those days superior rand was most
commonly achieved by age as in families.

It does not make a lick of sense to us assuming monotheism no matter how it is
read. It doesn't make any sense before in rank even assuming polytheists as it
appears to be an order without regard to fact. It could be read a lot of ways
perhaps as simply as that god gets the first offering in worship ceremonies as
Jupiter got the first incense in Roman multi-god temples.

As aggie notes in the lines leading up to it, I am the god who lead you out of
... There is no monotheism there. If they were monotheists there is nothing to
say but I am god.

[Dom]

On May 6, 12:43 am, Matt Giwer <***@tampabay.REMover.rr.com> wrote:
[snip]

        Just a couple months ago he [Dever] did a BAR article on house shrines of Ashara and
Yahweh. Go to the website and give a read to the free issue online. His dating
gives NO basis in evidence.

A copy of the aricle is at:

http://dailysalty.blogspot.com/2008/02/did-yahweh-share-throne-with-his.html

[Matt Giwer]

Post by Dom
[snip]

Just a couple months ago he [Dever] did a BAR article on house shrines of Ashara and
Yahweh. Go to the website and give a read to the free issue online. His dating
gives NO basis in evidence.

http://dailysalty.blogspot.com/2008/02/did-yahweh-share-throne-with-his.html

Thank you. This also answers the question of someone who asked after images of
Ashara.

[Agamemnon]

Post by SolomonW
says...

Post by Martin Edwards
Small sculptures of more recent dates, depicting Yahweh and his
consort Asherah have also been found.

Check again, what is interesting is the place for Asherah on many of
these sculptures is empty.

So someone must have hacked out her image.

Post by SolomonW
By the way, many say that Asherah means not a
consort but a pole.

That is a load of nonsense derived sole for deliberate misreading of
biblical reference's to Assura's Pole.

Post by SolomonW
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asherah#In_Israel_and_Judah

[Matt Giwer]

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW
says...

Post by Martin Edwards
Small sculptures of more recent dates, depicting Yahweh and his
consort Asherah have also been found.

Check again, what is interesting is the place for Asherah on many of
these sculptures is empty.

So someone must have hacked out her image.

That is something I have heard referred to as having happened in the 3rd c. BC
but I have never seen photos of it.

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW
By the way, many say that Asherah means not a
consort but a pole.

That is a load of nonsense derived sole for deliberate misreading of
biblical reference's to Assura's Pole.

The pole is a palm which is shown as an image always associated with the divine
couple.

[SolomonW]

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW
says...

Post by Martin Edwards
Small sculptures of more recent dates, depicting Yahweh and his
consort Asherah have also been found.

Check again, what is interesting is the place for Asherah on many of
these sculptures is empty.

So someone must have hacked out her image.

No

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW
By the way, many say that Asherah means not a
consort but a pole.

That is a load of nonsense derived sole for deliberate misreading of
biblical reference's to Assura's Pole.

Check again.

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asherah#In_Israel_and_Judah

[Martin Edwards]

Post by SolomonW
says...

Post by Martin Edwards
Small sculptures of more recent dates, depicting Yahweh and his
consort Asherah have also been found.

Check again, what is interesting is the place for Asherah on many of
these sculptures is empty. By the way, many say that Asherah means not a
consort but a pole.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asherah#In_Israel_and_Judah

Not another Polish joke.

[Agamemnon]

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
Is there any validity to the following, which was posted by
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.history.ancient/msg/d99e4b6a9deec2f0?
=================
There were no such things a Orthodox Jews at the time of the
Maccabbees. Orthodox Judaism was invented in the middle ages. At the
time of the Maccabbees the Jews were polytheistic and always hade been
and two main factions of Jews dominated both of which wanted to
control the temple. One faction worshiped Baal Shamen who they
identified with Zeus (who was also syncretised with Zeus Belus or
Dushara in Arabic, the son of El) whereas another faction worshiped
Elyon his father who was syncretised with El (Alohi in Hebrew or Allah
in Arabic and referred to as Orotalt by Herodotus) who was identified
by the Jews with Dionysus.
The Jews who worshiped Dionysus El Elyon were allied with the
Ptolemaic Egyptians and were admitted into the mysteries and branded
with the Ivy Leaf symbol of Dionysus. Those that supported the claim
of Zeus Baal Shamen to the temple worshiped were allied with the
Seleucids. The temple was in fact original the temple of Elyon and
Judas Maccabbee led the Jews that worshiped Dionysus to retake if from
those that wanted to worship Baal Shamen there instead. From the First
Book of Maccabbees we know that when Judas finally capture the temple
he celebrated by worshiping Elyon by waving wands covered with ivy,
which of course was the Thyrsus as carried by Dionysus and his
followers.

Very little.
In June 1986 archaeologists of Tel Aviv University announced discovery
of two small silver scolls or amulets. These two silver scrolls were
found in 1979 deep inside a burial cave at a site known as Ketef Hinnom,
west of the old city of Jerusalem. They were hidden at the back of the
tomb embedded in pottery fashioned as early as the seventh century BC.
Seven years later the fragile silver scrolls were opened and their texts
deciphered. The silver scrolls contain an excerpt from Numbers 6:24-26,
also known as the Priestly Benediction. In English the verses read: =3FThe
LORD bless you and keep you; The LORD make His face shine upon you, And
be gracious to you; The LORD lift up His countenance upon you, And give

And this proves what?

Assuming it's not a forgery, all that it says is "Jehovah make His face
shine upon you, And be gracious to you; Jehovah lift up His countenance upon
you, And give you peace." So what? This was just one God being invoked out
of many. It's no different to Linear B inscriptions which just invoke
Poseidon or Athena or quoting part of the Homeric Hymns to Demeter or Apollo
or Dionysus.

Post by SolomonW
=3F[=3F] May Yahweh bless you [and] keep you. May Yahweh cause his face to
shine [on you] =3F].=3F

It's pronounced Jehovah. That is how the name of translations of the names
of Pharaohs Meruserenre Yakubher and Yakobaam Sekkhaenre imply.

Post by SolomonW
=3F[=3F] May Yahweh bless you and keep you. May Yahweh cause his face to
shine [on] you and give you peace [=3F].=3F
The location of the find of the silver scrolls and analysis of the
Hebrew on the scrolls confirm a date close to 600 BCE, perhaps earlier =3F
long before the capture of Jerusalem and the Babylonian exile.
They were Monothesist back in the 600 BCE long before these events that
Agamemnon wrote above.

POPPYCOCK!

Why would they invoke the name of every God when this was just a prayer to
Jehovah?

The Elephantine letters clearly show that the Jews were polytheistic and the
Jehovah had a wife called Assura or Astarte who was worshiped in Starto's
Tower ie. Astarte's Tower which is referred to by Josephus and Maccabbees
and where the Al Aqsa Mosque is built today. On top of that next to the
Jewish temple stood the temple of Asklepius or Eshmun and there were
numerous shrines to Tammuz and Osiris who the Jews associated with Adonai
who was Adonis or Baal Hadad (Adodus according to Philo) who from the Baal
Epic we know rose from the dead just like Tammuz, Osiris and Adonis due to
the efforts of his wife Anat the daughter of El who is probably the same
person as the Arab Goddess Alilat.

[SolomonW]

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
Is there any validity to the following, which was posted by
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.history.ancient/msg/d99e4b6a9deec2f0?
=================
There were no such things a Orthodox Jews at the time of the
Maccabbees. Orthodox Judaism was invented in the middle ages. At the
time of the Maccabbees the Jews were polytheistic and always hade been
and two main factions of Jews dominated both of which wanted to
control the temple. One faction worshiped Baal Shamen who they
identified with Zeus (who was also syncretised with Zeus Belus or
Dushara in Arabic, the son of El) whereas another faction worshiped
Elyon his father who was syncretised with El (Alohi in Hebrew or Allah
in Arabic and referred to as Orotalt by Herodotus) who was identified
by the Jews with Dionysus.
The Jews who worshiped Dionysus El Elyon were allied with the
Ptolemaic Egyptians and were admitted into the mysteries and branded
with the Ivy Leaf symbol of Dionysus. Those that supported the claim
of Zeus Baal Shamen to the temple worshiped were allied with the
Seleucids. The temple was in fact original the temple of Elyon and
Judas Maccabbee led the Jews that worshiped Dionysus to retake if from
those that wanted to worship Baal Shamen there instead. From the First
Book of Maccabbees we know that when Judas finally capture the temple
he celebrated by worshiping Elyon by waving wands covered with ivy,
which of course was the Thyrsus as carried by Dionysus and his
followers.

Very little.
In June 1986 archaeologists of Tel Aviv University announced discovery
of two small silver scolls or amulets. These two silver scrolls were
found in 1979 deep inside a burial cave at a site known as Ketef Hinnom,
west of the old city of Jerusalem. They were hidden at the back of the
tomb embedded in pottery fashioned as early as the seventh century BC.
Seven years later the fragile silver scrolls were opened and their texts
deciphered. The silver scrolls contain an excerpt from Numbers 6:24-26,
also known as the Priestly Benediction. In English the verses read: =3FThe
LORD bless you and keep you; The LORD make His face shine upon you, And
be gracious to you; The LORD lift up His countenance upon you, And give

And this proves what?
Assuming it's not a forgery,

It is not. It is out of a authorized dig.

Post by Agamemnon
all that it says is "Jehovah make His face
shine upon you, And be gracious to you; Jehovah lift up His countenance upon
you, And give you peace." So what? This was just one God being invoked out
of many. It's no different to Linear B inscriptions which just invoke
Poseidon or Athena or quoting part of the Homeric Hymns to Demeter or Apollo
or Dionysus.

Show me some Linear B inscriptions that you are thinking of?

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW
=3F[=3F] May Yahweh bless you [and] keep you. May Yahweh cause his face to
shine [on you] =3F].=3F

It's pronounced Jehovah. That is how the name of translations of the names
of Pharaohs Meruserenre Yakubher and Yakobaam Sekkhaenre imply.

No it is Yahweh


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW
=3F[=3F] May Yahweh bless you and keep you. May Yahweh cause his face to
shine [on] you and give you peace [=3F].=3F
The location of the find of the silver scrolls and analysis of the
Hebrew on the scrolls confirm a date close to 600 BCE, perhaps earlier =3F
long before the capture of Jerusalem and the Babylonian exile.
They were Monothesist back in the 600 BCE long before these events that
Agamemnon wrote above.

POPPYCOCK!
Why would they invoke the name of every God when this was just a prayer to
Jehovah?
The Elephantine letters clearly show that the Jews were polytheistic and the
Jehovah had a wife called Assura or Astarte who was worshiped in Starto's
Tower ie. Astarte's Tower which is referred to by Josephus and Maccabbees
and where the Al Aqsa Mosque is built today. On top of that next to the
Jewish temple stood the temple of Asklepius or Eshmun and there were
numerous shrines to Tammuz and Osiris who the Jews associated with Adonai
who was Adonis or Baal Hadad (Adodus according to Philo) who from the Baal
Epic we know rose from the dead just like Tammuz, Osiris and Adonis due to
the efforts of his wife Anat the daughter of El who is probably the same
person as the Arab Goddess Alilat.

Where does the Elephantine letters say this?

[Agamemnon]

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
Is there any validity to the following, which was posted by
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.history.ancient/msg/d99e4b6a9deec2f0?
=================
There were no such things a Orthodox Jews at the time of the
Maccabbees. Orthodox Judaism was invented in the middle ages. At the
time of the Maccabbees the Jews were polytheistic and always hade been
and two main factions of Jews dominated both of which wanted to
control the temple. One faction worshiped Baal Shamen who they
identified with Zeus (who was also syncretised with Zeus Belus or
Dushara in Arabic, the son of El) whereas another faction worshiped
Elyon his father who was syncretised with El (Alohi in Hebrew or Allah
in Arabic and referred to as Orotalt by Herodotus) who was identified
by the Jews with Dionysus.
The Jews who worshiped Dionysus El Elyon were allied with the
Ptolemaic Egyptians and were admitted into the mysteries and branded
with the Ivy Leaf symbol of Dionysus. Those that supported the claim
of Zeus Baal Shamen to the temple worshiped were allied with the
Seleucids. The temple was in fact original the temple of Elyon and
Judas Maccabbee led the Jews that worshiped Dionysus to retake if from
those that wanted to worship Baal Shamen there instead. From the First
Book of Maccabbees we know that when Judas finally capture the temple
he celebrated by worshiping Elyon by waving wands covered with ivy,
which of course was the Thyrsus as carried by Dionysus and his
followers.

Very little.
In June 1986 archaeologists of Tel Aviv University announced discovery
of two small silver scolls or amulets. These two silver scrolls were
found in 1979 deep inside a burial cave at a site known as Ketef Hinnom,
west of the old city of Jerusalem. They were hidden at the back of the
tomb embedded in pottery fashioned as early as the seventh century BC.
Seven years later the fragile silver scrolls were opened and their texts
deciphered. The silver scrolls contain an excerpt from Numbers 6:24-26,
also known as the Priestly Benediction. In English the verses read: =3FThe
LORD bless you and keep you; The LORD make His face shine upon you, And
be gracious to you; The LORD lift up His countenance upon you, And give

And this proves what?
Assuming it's not a forgery,

It is not. It is out of a authorized dig.

So? There have been forgeries from other authorised digs.

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon
all that it says is "Jehovah make His face
shine upon you, And be gracious to you; Jehovah lift up His countenance upon
you, And give you peace." So what? This was just one God being invoked out
of many. It's no different to Linear B inscriptions which just invoke
Poseidon or Athena or quoting part of the Homeric Hymns to Demeter or Apollo
or Dionysus.

Show me some Linear B inscriptions that you are thinking of?

http://projectsx.dartmouth.edu/history/bronze_age/lessons/les/25.html

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW
=3F[=3F] May Yahweh bless you [and] keep you. May Yahweh cause his face to
shine [on you] =3F].=3F

It's pronounced Jehovah. That is how the name of translations of the names
of Pharaohs Meruserenre Yakubher and Yakobaam Sekkhaenre imply.

No it is Yahweh

Wrong. It's Jehovah. Bhe and baa from the Hieroglyphics indicate that the
original b is a v sound in Hebrew. In Greek the name is rendered Ieuo, where
eu is pronounced ev. There is no evidence of a digamma or w.

Post by SolomonW
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh

Anyone can edid Wikipedia.

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW
=3F[=3F] May Yahweh bless you and keep you. May Yahweh cause his face to
shine [on] you and give you peace [=3F].=3F
The location of the find of the silver scrolls and analysis of the
Hebrew on the scrolls confirm a date close to 600 BCE, perhaps earlier =3F
long before the capture of Jerusalem and the Babylonian exile.
They were Monothesist back in the 600 BCE long before these events that
Agamemnon wrote above.

POPPYCOCK!
Why would they invoke the name of every God when this was just a prayer to
Jehovah?
The Elephantine letters clearly show that the Jews were polytheistic and the
Jehovah had a wife called Assura or Astarte who was worshiped in Starto's
Tower ie. Astarte's Tower which is referred to by Josephus and Maccabbees
and where the Al Aqsa Mosque is built today. On top of that next to the
Jewish temple stood the temple of Asklepius or Eshmun and there were
numerous shrines to Tammuz and Osiris who the Jews associated with Adonai
who was Adonis or Baal Hadad (Adodus according to Philo) who from the Baal
Epic we know rose from the dead just like Tammuz, Osiris and Adonis due to
the efforts of his wife Anat the daughter of El who is probably the same
person as the Arab Goddess Alilat.

Where does the Elephantine letters say this?

At the bottom where it invokes Jehovah and his Assura.

[SolomonW]

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
Is there any validity to the following, which was posted by
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.history.ancient/msg/d99e4b6a9deec2f0?
=================
There were no such things a Orthodox Jews at the time of the
Maccabbees. Orthodox Judaism was invented in the middle ages. At the
time of the Maccabbees the Jews were polytheistic and always hade been
and two main factions of Jews dominated both of which wanted to
control the temple. One faction worshiped Baal Shamen who they
identified with Zeus (who was also syncretised with Zeus Belus or
Dushara in Arabic, the son of El) whereas another faction worshiped
Elyon his father who was syncretised with El (Alohi in Hebrew or Allah
in Arabic and referred to as Orotalt by Herodotus) who was identified
by the Jews with Dionysus.
The Jews who worshiped Dionysus El Elyon were allied with the
Ptolemaic Egyptians and were admitted into the mysteries and branded
with the Ivy Leaf symbol of Dionysus. Those that supported the claim
of Zeus Baal Shamen to the temple worshiped were allied with the
Seleucids. The temple was in fact original the temple of Elyon and
Judas Maccabbee led the Jews that worshiped Dionysus to retake if from
those that wanted to worship Baal Shamen there instead. From the First
Book of Maccabbees we know that when Judas finally capture the temple
he celebrated by worshiping Elyon by waving wands covered with ivy,
which of course was the Thyrsus as carried by Dionysus and his
followers.

Very little.
In June 1986 archaeologists of Tel Aviv University announced discovery
of two small silver scolls or amulets. These two silver scrolls were
found in 1979 deep inside a burial cave at a site known as Ketef Hinnom,
west of the old city of Jerusalem. They were hidden at the back of the
tomb embedded in pottery fashioned as early as the seventh century BC.
Seven years later the fragile silver scrolls were opened and their texts
deciphered. The silver scrolls contain an excerpt from Numbers 6:24-26,
also known as the Priestly Benediction. In English the verses read: =3FThe
LORD bless you and keep you; The LORD make His face shine upon you, And
be gracious to you; The LORD lift up His countenance upon you, And give

And this proves what?
Assuming it's not a forgery,

It is not. It is out of a authorized dig.

So? There have been forgeries from other authorised digs.

Anything is possible but it is unlikely to be a forgery if it is from an
authorized dig. Note there have been real articles from unauthorized
digs too.

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon
all that it says is "Jehovah make His face
shine upon you, And be gracious to you; Jehovah lift up His countenance upon
you, And give you peace." So what? This was just one God being invoked out
of many. It's no different to Linear B inscriptions which just invoke
Poseidon or Athena or quoting part of the Homeric Hymns to Demeter or Apollo
or Dionysus.

Show me some Linear B inscriptions that you are thinking of?

http://projectsx.dartmouth.edu/history/bronze_age/lessons/les/25.html

Does not load up.

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW
=3F[=3F] May Yahweh bless you [and] keep you. May Yahweh cause his face to
shine [on you] =3F].=3F

It's pronounced Jehovah. That is how the name of translations of the names
of Pharaohs Meruserenre Yakubher and Yakobaam Sekkhaenre imply.

No it is Yahweh

Wrong. It's Jehovah. Bhe and baa from the Hieroglyphics indicate that the
original b is a v sound in Hebrew. In Greek the name is rendered Ieuo, where
eu is pronounced ev. There is no evidence of a digamma or w.

Post by SolomonW
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh

Anyone can edid Wikipedia.

Not the reference on the bottom of the page.

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW
=3F[=3F] May Yahweh bless you and keep you. May Yahweh cause his face to
shine [on] you and give you peace [=3F].=3F
The location of the find of the silver scrolls and analysis of the
Hebrew on the scrolls confirm a date close to 600 BCE, perhaps earlier =3F
long before the capture of Jerusalem and the Babylonian exile.
They were Monothesist back in the 600 BCE long before these events that
Agamemnon wrote above.

POPPYCOCK!
Why would they invoke the name of every God when this was just a prayer to
Jehovah?
The Elephantine letters clearly show that the Jews were polytheistic and the
Jehovah had a wife called Assura or Astarte who was worshiped in Starto's
Tower ie. Astarte's Tower which is referred to by Josephus and Maccabbees
and where the Al Aqsa Mosque is built today. On top of that next to the
Jewish temple stood the temple of Asklepius or Eshmun and there were
numerous shrines to Tammuz and Osiris who the Jews associated with Adonai
who was Adonis or Baal Hadad (Adodus according to Philo) who from the Baal
Epic we know rose from the dead just like Tammuz, Osiris and Adonis due to
the efforts of his wife Anat the daughter of El who is probably the same
person as the Arab Goddess Alilat.

Where does the Elephantine letters say this?

At the bottom where it invokes Jehovah and his Assura.

It is debatable about the Elephantine community some scholars claiming
that they are of mixed Judaeo-Samaritan origins. In any case they were
long before the period of the Maccabbees.


Certainly a reading of the old testament shows that the ancient Jews did
worship other Gods. But it does not mean that the ideal of monotheism
did not exist. Despite the Catholic Church's teaching against divorce,
Catholics divorce. Does not mean that Catholic's Church approves of it.

[Agamemnon]

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
Is there any validity to the following, which was posted by
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.history.ancient/msg/d99e4b6a9deec2f0?
=================
There were no such things a Orthodox Jews at the time of the
Maccabbees. Orthodox Judaism was invented in the middle ages. At the
time of the Maccabbees the Jews were polytheistic and always hade been
and two main factions of Jews dominated both of which wanted to
control the temple. One faction worshiped Baal Shamen who they
identified with Zeus (who was also syncretised with Zeus Belus or
Dushara in Arabic, the son of El) whereas another faction worshiped
Elyon his father who was syncretised with El (Alohi in Hebrew or Allah
in Arabic and referred to as Orotalt by Herodotus) who was identified
by the Jews with Dionysus.
The Jews who worshiped Dionysus El Elyon were allied with the
Ptolemaic Egyptians and were admitted into the mysteries and branded
with the Ivy Leaf symbol of Dionysus. Those that supported the claim
of Zeus Baal Shamen to the temple worshiped were allied with the
Seleucids. The temple was in fact original the temple of Elyon and
Judas Maccabbee led the Jews that worshiped Dionysus to retake if from
those that wanted to worship Baal Shamen there instead. From the First
Book of Maccabbees we know that when Judas finally capture the temple
he celebrated by worshiping Elyon by waving wands covered with ivy,
which of course was the Thyrsus as carried by Dionysus and his
followers.

Very little.
In June 1986 archaeologists of Tel Aviv University announced discovery
of two small silver scolls or amulets. These two silver scrolls were
found in 1979 deep inside a burial cave at a site known as Ketef Hinnom,
west of the old city of Jerusalem. They were hidden at the back of the
tomb embedded in pottery fashioned as early as the seventh century BC.
Seven years later the fragile silver scrolls were opened and their texts
deciphered. The silver scrolls contain an excerpt from Numbers 6:24-26,
also known as the Priestly Benediction. In English the verses read: =3FThe
LORD bless you and keep you; The LORD make His face shine upon you, And
be gracious to you; The LORD lift up His countenance upon you, And give

And this proves what?
Assuming it's not a forgery,

It is not. It is out of a authorized dig.

So? There have been forgeries from other authorised digs.

Anything is possible but it is unlikely to be a forgery if it is from an
authorized dig. Note there have been real articles from unauthorized
digs too.

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon
all that it says is "Jehovah make His face
shine upon you, And be gracious to you; Jehovah lift up His
countenance
upon
you, And give you peace." So what? This was just one God being invoked out
of many. It's no different to Linear B inscriptions which just invoke
Poseidon or Athena or quoting part of the Homeric Hymns to Demeter or Apollo
or Dionysus.

Show me some Linear B inscriptions that you are thinking of?

http://projectsx.dartmouth.edu/history/bronze_age/lessons/les/25.html

Does not load up.

http://www.csun.edu/~hcfll004/mycen.html

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW
=3F[=3F] May Yahweh bless you [and] keep you. May Yahweh cause his
face
to
shine [on you] =3F].=3F

It's pronounced Jehovah. That is how the name of translations of the names
of Pharaohs Meruserenre Yakubher and Yakobaam Sekkhaenre imply.

No it is Yahweh

Wrong. It's Jehovah. Bhe and baa from the Hieroglyphics indicate that the
original b is a v sound in Hebrew. In Greek the name is rendered Ieuo, where
eu is pronounced ev. There is no evidence of a digamma or w.

Post by SolomonW
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh

Anyone can edid Wikipedia.

Not the reference on the bottom of the page.

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW
=3F[=3F] May Yahweh bless you and keep you. May Yahweh cause his
face
to
shine [on] you and give you peace [=3F].=3F
The location of the find of the silver scrolls and analysis of the
Hebrew on the scrolls confirm a date close to 600 BCE, perhaps
earlier
=3F
long before the capture of Jerusalem and the Babylonian exile.
They were Monothesist back in the 600 BCE long before these events that
Agamemnon wrote above.

POPPYCOCK!
Why would they invoke the name of every God when this was just a
prayer
to
Jehovah?
The Elephantine letters clearly show that the Jews were polytheistic
and
the
Jehovah had a wife called Assura or Astarte who was worshiped in Starto's
Tower ie. Astarte's Tower which is referred to by Josephus and Maccabbees
and where the Al Aqsa Mosque is built today. On top of that next to the
Jewish temple stood the temple of Asklepius or Eshmun and there were
numerous shrines to Tammuz and Osiris who the Jews associated with Adonai
who was Adonis or Baal Hadad (Adodus according to Philo) who from the Baal
Epic we know rose from the dead just like Tammuz, Osiris and Adonis
due
to
the efforts of his wife Anat the daughter of El who is probably the same
person as the Arab Goddess Alilat.

Where does the Elephantine letters say this?

At the bottom where it invokes Jehovah and his Assura.

It is debatable about the Elephantine community some scholars claiming
that they are of mixed Judaeo-Samaritan origins. In any case they were

There were no such things as Jews before Judas Maccabbee. The Jewish
religion as we know it did not exist until after Titus destroyed the temple
of Elyon. From your inscriptions it is clear that Samaria was the centre of
the Jehovah cult whereas Jerusalem was the centre of the El and Elyon cults.

Post by SolomonW
long before the period of the Maccabbees.

400 BC. Maccabbees were 168-65 BC.

Post by SolomonW
Certainly a reading of the old testament shows that the ancient Jews did
worship other Gods. But it does not mean that the ideal of monotheism
did not exist.

Everyone in ancient times was monotheistic. The people who worshiped Zeus
were monotheists. Those that worshiped Amon were monotheists. Those that
worshiped Dagon were monotheists. Monotheism did not mean the worship of
just one God. It meant the worship any God in their own right without
associating/syncretising them with others. Read the Koran. You shall not
associate the name of Allah (Alohi/El) with any other God. Allah was not
Zeus and was not Jehovah and was not Hubal. Allah was just Allah. That is
monotheism.

Post by SolomonW
Despite the Catholic Church's teaching against divorce,
Catholics divorce. Does not mean that Catholic's Church approves of it.

[SolomonW]

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
Is there any validity to the following, which was posted by
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.history.ancient/msg/d99e4b6a9deec2f0?
=================
There were no such things a Orthodox Jews at the time of the
Maccabbees. Orthodox Judaism was invented in the middle ages. At the
time of the Maccabbees the Jews were polytheistic and always hade been
and two main factions of Jews dominated both of which wanted to
control the temple. One faction worshiped Baal Shamen who they
identified with Zeus (who was also syncretised with Zeus Belus or
Dushara in Arabic, the son of El) whereas another faction worshiped
Elyon his father who was syncretised with El (Alohi in Hebrew or Allah
in Arabic and referred to as Orotalt by Herodotus) who was identified
by the Jews with Dionysus.
The Jews who worshiped Dionysus El Elyon were allied with the
Ptolemaic Egyptians and were admitted into the mysteries and branded
with the Ivy Leaf symbol of Dionysus. Those that supported the claim
of Zeus Baal Shamen to the temple worshiped were allied with the
Seleucids. The temple was in fact original the temple of Elyon and
Judas Maccabbee led the Jews that worshiped Dionysus to retake if from
those that wanted to worship Baal Shamen there instead. From the First
Book of Maccabbees we know that when Judas finally capture the temple
he celebrated by worshiping Elyon by waving wands covered with ivy,
which of course was the Thyrsus as carried by Dionysus and his
followers.

Very little.
In June 1986 archaeologists of Tel Aviv University announced discovery
of two small silver scolls or amulets. These two silver scrolls were
found in 1979 deep inside a burial cave at a site known as Ketef Hinnom,
west of the old city of Jerusalem. They were hidden at the back of the
tomb embedded in pottery fashioned as early as the seventh century BC.
Seven years later the fragile silver scrolls were opened and their texts
deciphered. The silver scrolls contain an excerpt from Numbers 6:24-26,
also known as the Priestly Benediction. In English the verses read: =3FThe
LORD bless you and keep you; The LORD make His face shine upon you, And
be gracious to you; The LORD lift up His countenance upon you, And give

And this proves what?
Assuming it's not a forgery,

It is not. It is out of a authorized dig.

So? There have been forgeries from other authorised digs.

Anything is possible but it is unlikely to be a forgery if it is from an
authorized dig. Note there have been real articles from unauthorized
digs too.

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon
all that it says is "Jehovah make His face
shine upon you, And be gracious to you; Jehovah lift up His
countenance
upon
you, And give you peace." So what? This was just one God being invoked out

(a)

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon
of many. It's no different to Linear B inscriptions which just invoke
Poseidon or Athena or quoting part of the Homeric Hymns to Demeter or Apollo
or Dionysus.

Show me some Linear B inscriptions that you are thinking of?

http://projectsx.dartmouth.edu/history/bronze_age/lessons/les/25.html

Does not load up.

(b)

Post by Agamemnon
http://www.csun.edu/~hcfll004/mycen.html

There is nothing here about hymns that you spoke about! See (a) above
for what you claim!

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW
=3F[=3F] May Yahweh bless you [and] keep you. May Yahweh cause his
face
to
shine [on you] =3F].=3F

It's pronounced Jehovah. That is how the name of translations of the names
of Pharaohs Meruserenre Yakubher and Yakobaam Sekkhaenre imply.

No it is Yahweh

Wrong. It's Jehovah. Bhe and baa from the Hieroglyphics indicate that the
original b is a v sound in Hebrew. In Greek the name is rendered Ieuo, where
eu is pronounced ev. There is no evidence of a digamma or w.

Post by SolomonW
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh

Anyone can edid Wikipedia.

Not the reference on the bottom of the page.

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW
=3F[=3F] May Yahweh bless you and keep you. May Yahweh cause his
face
to
shine [on] you and give you peace [=3F].=3F
The location of the find of the silver scrolls and analysis of the
Hebrew on the scrolls confirm a date close to 600 BCE, perhaps
earlier
=3F
long before the capture of Jerusalem and the Babylonian exile.
They were Monothesist back in the 600 BCE long before these events that
Agamemnon wrote above.

POPPYCOCK!
Why would they invoke the name of every God when this was just a
prayer
to
Jehovah?
The Elephantine letters clearly show that the Jews were polytheistic
and
the
Jehovah had a wife called Assura or Astarte who was worshiped in Starto's
Tower ie. Astarte's Tower which is referred to by Josephus and Maccabbees
and where the Al Aqsa Mosque is built today. On top of that next to the
Jewish temple stood the temple of Asklepius or Eshmun and there were
numerous shrines to Tammuz and Osiris who the Jews associated with Adonai
who was Adonis or Baal Hadad (Adodus according to Philo) who from the Baal
Epic we know rose from the dead just like Tammuz, Osiris and Adonis
due
to
the efforts of his wife Anat the daughter of El who is probably the same
person as the Arab Goddess Alilat.

Where does the Elephantine letters say this?

At the bottom where it invokes Jehovah and his Assura.

It is debatable about the Elephantine community some scholars claiming
that they are of mixed Judaeo-Samaritan origins. In any case they were

There were no such things as Jews before Judas Maccabbee. The Jewish
religion as we know it did not exist until after Titus destroyed the temple
of Elyon. From your inscriptions it is clear that Samaria was the centre of
the Jehovah cult whereas Jerusalem was the centre of the El and Elyon cults.

What inscription did I quote that shows this?

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW
long before the period of the Maccabbees.

400 BC. Maccabbees were 168-65 BC.

Which is my point. The Jews at Elephantine were hundreds years earier.

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW
Certainly a reading of the old testament shows that the ancient Jews did
worship other Gods. But it does not mean that the ideal of monotheism
did not exist.

Everyone in ancient times was monotheistic. The people who worshiped Zeus
were monotheists.

Hardly as the list you supplied at (b) above is titled
"MYCENAEAN DIVINITIES"

Post by Agamemnon
Those that worshiped Amon were monotheists. Those that
worshiped Dagon were monotheists. Monotheism did not mean the worship of
just one God. It meant the worship any God in their own right without
associating/syncretising them with others. Read the Koran. You shall not
associate the name of Allah (Alohi/El) with any other God. Allah was not
Zeus and was not Jehovah and was not Hubal. Allah was just Allah. That is
monotheism.

Not true then or now. To a Muslim, Allah in Islam is a universal god.
There are no local, tribal or parochial one. God is the existence of a
single and absolute truth that transcends the world; a unique and
indivisible being who is independent of the entire creation.

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW
Despite the Catholic Church's teaching against divorce,
Catholics divorce. Does not mean that Catholic's Church approves of it.

[Agamemnon]

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
Is there any validity to the following, which was posted by
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.history.ancient/msg/d99e4b6a9deec2f0?
=================
There were no such things a Orthodox Jews at the time of the
Maccabbees. Orthodox Judaism was invented in the middle ages. At the
time of the Maccabbees the Jews were polytheistic and always
hade
been
and two main factions of Jews dominated both of which wanted to
control the temple. One faction worshiped Baal Shamen who they
identified with Zeus (who was also syncretised with Zeus Belus or
Dushara in Arabic, the son of El) whereas another faction worshiped
Elyon his father who was syncretised with El (Alohi in Hebrew or Allah
in Arabic and referred to as Orotalt by Herodotus) who was identified
by the Jews with Dionysus.
The Jews who worshiped Dionysus El Elyon were allied with the
Ptolemaic Egyptians and were admitted into the mysteries and branded
with the Ivy Leaf symbol of Dionysus. Those that supported the claim
of Zeus Baal Shamen to the temple worshiped were allied with the
Seleucids. The temple was in fact original the temple of Elyon and
Judas Maccabbee led the Jews that worshiped Dionysus to retake
if
from
those that wanted to worship Baal Shamen there instead. From the First
Book of Maccabbees we know that when Judas finally capture the temple
he celebrated by worshiping Elyon by waving wands covered with ivy,
which of course was the Thyrsus as carried by Dionysus and his
followers.

Very little.
In June 1986 archaeologists of Tel Aviv University announced discovery
of two small silver scolls or amulets. These two silver scrolls were
found in 1979 deep inside a burial cave at a site known as Ketef Hinnom,
west of the old city of Jerusalem. They were hidden at the back
of
the
tomb embedded in pottery fashioned as early as the seventh
century
BC.
Seven years later the fragile silver scrolls were opened and
their
texts
deciphered. The silver scrolls contain an excerpt from Numbers 6:24-26,
also known as the Priestly Benediction. In English the verses
=3FThe
LORD bless you and keep you; The LORD make His face shine upon
you,
And
be gracious to you; The LORD lift up His countenance upon you,
And
give

And this proves what?
Assuming it's not a forgery,

It is not. It is out of a authorized dig.

So? There have been forgeries from other authorised digs.

Anything is possible but it is unlikely to be a forgery if it is from an
authorized dig. Note there have been real articles from unauthorized
digs too.

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon
all that it says is "Jehovah make His face
shine upon you, And be gracious to you; Jehovah lift up His
countenance
upon
you, And give you peace." So what? This was just one God being
invoked
out

(a)

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon
of many. It's no different to Linear B inscriptions which just invoke
Poseidon or Athena or quoting part of the Homeric Hymns to Demeter
or
Apollo
or Dionysus.

Show me some Linear B inscriptions that you are thinking of?

http://projectsx.dartmouth.edu/history/bronze_age/lessons/les/25.html

Does not load up.

(b)

Post by Agamemnon
http://www.csun.edu/~hcfll004/mycen.html

There is nothing here about hymns that you spoke about! See (a) above
for what you claim!

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW
=3F[=3F] May Yahweh bless you [and] keep you. May Yahweh cause his
face
to
shine [on you] =3F].=3F

It's pronounced Jehovah. That is how the name of translations of
the
names
of Pharaohs Meruserenre Yakubher and Yakobaam Sekkhaenre imply.

No it is Yahweh

Wrong. It's Jehovah. Bhe and baa from the Hieroglyphics indicate that the
original b is a v sound in Hebrew. In Greek the name is rendered Ieuo, where
eu is pronounced ev. There is no evidence of a digamma or w.

Post by SolomonW
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh

Anyone can edid Wikipedia.

Not the reference on the bottom of the page.

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW
=3F[=3F] May Yahweh bless you and keep you. May Yahweh cause his
face
to
shine [on] you and give you peace [=3F].=3F
The location of the find of the silver scrolls and analysis of the
Hebrew on the scrolls confirm a date close to 600 BCE, perhaps
earlier
=3F
long before the capture of Jerusalem and the Babylonian exile.
They were Monothesist back in the 600 BCE long before these
events
that
Agamemnon wrote above.

POPPYCOCK!
Why would they invoke the name of every God when this was just a
prayer
to
Jehovah?
The Elephantine letters clearly show that the Jews were
polytheistic
and
the
Jehovah had a wife called Assura or Astarte who was worshiped in Starto's
Tower ie. Astarte's Tower which is referred to by Josephus and Maccabbees
and where the Al Aqsa Mosque is built today. On top of that next to the
Jewish temple stood the temple of Asklepius or Eshmun and there were
numerous shrines to Tammuz and Osiris who the Jews associated with Adonai
who was Adonis or Baal Hadad (Adodus according to Philo) who from
the
Baal
Epic we know rose from the dead just like Tammuz, Osiris and Adonis
due
to
the efforts of his wife Anat the daughter of El who is probably the same
person as the Arab Goddess Alilat.

Where does the Elephantine letters say this?

At the bottom where it invokes Jehovah and his Assura.

It is debatable about the Elephantine community some scholars claiming
that they are of mixed Judaeo-Samaritan origins. In any case they were

There were no such things as Jews before Judas Maccabbee. The Jewish
religion as we know it did not exist until after Titus destroyed the temple
of Elyon. From your inscriptions it is clear that Samaria was the centre of
the Jehovah cult whereas Jerusalem was the centre of the El and Elyon cults.

What inscription did I quote that shows this?

The Jehovah shines inscription.

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW
long before the period of the Maccabbees.

400 BC. Maccabbees were 168-65 BC.

Which is my point. The Jews at Elephantine were hundreds years earier.

HOGWASH! The Jews of Elephantine were there hundreds of years before the
Maccabbees and were polytheistic.

"From the fact, however, that their priests used to chant to the music of
flutes and cymbals, and to wear garlands of ivy, and that a golden vine was
found in the temple, some have thought that they worshipped father Liber
(ie. Dionysus/El Elyon), the conqueror of the East, though their
institutions do not by any means harmonize with the theory; for Liber
established a festive and cheerful worship, while the Jewish religion is
tasteless and mean." (Tacitus, Histories V)

"We are told that the rest of the seventh day was adopted, because this day
brought with it a termination of their toils; after a while the charm of
indolence beguilded them into giving up the seventh year also to inaction.
But others say that it is an observance in honour of Saturn (ie. Baal
Shamun), either from the primitive elements of their faith having been
transmitted from the Idaei, who are said to have shared the flight of that
God, and to have founded the race, or from the circumstance that of the
seven stars which rule the destinies of men Saturn moves in the highest
orbit and with the mightiest power, and that many of the heavenly bodies
complete their revolutions and courses in multiples of seven." (Tacitus,
Histories V)

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW
Certainly a reading of the old testament shows that the ancient Jews did
worship other Gods. But it does not mean that the ideal of monotheism
did not exist.

Everyone in ancient times was monotheistic. The people who worshiped Zeus
were monotheists.

Hardly as the list you supplied at (b) above is titled
"MYCENAEAN DIVINITIES"

So? Each were worshiped as INDIVIDUALS in their own right. That is
Monotheism. The Jews after the time of the Maccabbees syncretised 7 of their
Gods and worshiped them together as one. That is Polytheism.

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon
Those that worshiped Amon were monotheists. Those that
worshiped Dagon were monotheists. Monotheism did not mean the worship of
just one God. It meant the worship any God in their own right without
associating/syncretising them with others. Read the Koran. You shall not
associate the name of Allah (Alohi/El) with any other God. Allah was not
Zeus and was not Jehovah and was not Hubal. Allah was just Allah. That is
monotheism.

Not true then or now. To a Muslim, Allah in Islam is a universal god.

Not in the time of Mohammed. Allah had a wife, Alilat, and two daughters and
even Mohammed recognised them and signed a declaration to that effect in the
so-called "Satanic Verses." One of those daughters Manat was married to
Hubal (Apollo) and the other was Usa.

Post by SolomonW
There are no local, tribal or parochial one. God is the existence of a

POPPYCOCK!

Post by SolomonW
single and absolute truth that transcends the world; a unique and
indivisible being who is independent of the entire creation.

TWADDLE! That concept was invented by the Greek philosophers and snycretised
with the existing Arab Gods which were worshiped in the time of Mohammed and
which Mohammed himself originally recognised. All that Mohammed did was that
he eventually rejected and outlawed the worship of all the other Arab Gods
except that of Allah, his primary God.

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW
Despite the Catholic Church's teaching against divorce,
Catholics divorce. Does not mean that Catholic's Church approves of it.

[VtSkier]

(snip)

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon
Everyone in ancient times was monotheistic. The people who worshiped Zeus
were monotheists.

Hardly as the list you supplied at (b) above is titled
"MYCENAEAN DIVINITIES"

So? Each were worshiped as INDIVIDUALS in their own right. That is
Monotheism. The Jews after the time of the Maccabbees syncretised 7 of
their Gods and worshiped them together as one. That is Polytheism.

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon
Those that worshiped Amon were monotheists. Those that
worshiped Dagon were monotheists. Monotheism did not mean the worship of
just one God. It meant the worship any God in their own right without
associating/syncretising them with others. Read the Koran. You shall not
associate the name of Allah (Alohi/El) with any other God. Allah was not
Zeus and was not Jehovah and was not Hubal. Allah was just Allah. That is
monotheism.

and (snip) the rest of the twaddle

Don't you just love it when aggie makes up new meanings
for words?

try "Polytheism" and "Monotheism" for instance.
==================================================
polytheism
n : belief in multiple Gods [syn: pantheism] [ant: monotheism]


Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)

Polytheism \Pol"y*the*ism\, n. [Poly- + Gr. ? cf. F.
polyth['e]isme.]
The doctrine of, or belief in, a plurality of gods.

In the Old Testament, the gradual development of
polytheism from the primitive monotheism may be
learned. --Shaff-Herzog.
==================================================
monotheism
n : belief in a single God [ant: polytheism]


Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)

Monotheism \Mon"o*the*ism\, n. [Mono- + Gr. ? god: cf. F.
monoth['e]isme.]
The doctrine or belief that there is but one God.
==================================================
Note that there is no requirement for worship in the above
definitions, there is only a requirement for belief.

If you believe that there are *more* than one god, you
are a polytheist. If you believe that there is *only*
one god, you are a monotheist. Plain and simple. Herein
aggie tries to once again complicate things to
obfuscate his arguments.

BTW, I'm not saying that the Jews were not initially
polytheistic and that the OT clearly shows this. The
Schaff-Herzog quote in the definition is a little
unclear in that regard.

[Agamemnon]

Post by VtSkier
(snip)

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon
Everyone in ancient times was monotheistic. The people who worshiped Zeus
were monotheists.

Hardly as the list you supplied at (b) above is titled
"MYCENAEAN DIVINITIES"

So? Each were worshiped as INDIVIDUALS in their own right. That is
Monotheism. The Jews after the time of the Maccabbees syncretised 7 of
their Gods and worshiped them together as one. That is Polytheism.

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon
Those that worshiped Amon were monotheists. Those that
worshiped Dagon were monotheists. Monotheism did not mean the worship of
just one God. It meant the worship any God in their own right without
associating/syncretising them with others. Read the Koran. You shall not
associate the name of Allah (Alohi/El) with any other God. Allah was not
Zeus and was not Jehovah and was not Hubal. Allah was just Allah. That is
monotheism.

and (snip) the rest of the twaddle
Don't you just love it when aggie makes up new meanings
for words?
try "Polytheism" and "Monotheism" for instance.
==================================================
polytheism
n : belief in multiple Gods [syn: pantheism] [ant: monotheism]

POPPYCOCK.

Pantheism is NOT a synonym with polytheism. Pantheism is the belief that all
the Gods are aspects of one God and is therefore a form of Monotheism.
Therefore since one of your definitions has been proven to be wrong your
other definitions are worth shit.

Polytheisim is the worship of more than one God, not belief.

Post by VtSkier
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)
Polytheism \Pol"y*the*ism\, n. [Poly- + Gr. ? cf. F.
polyth['e]isme.]
The doctrine of, or belief in, a plurality of gods.
In the Old Testament, the gradual development of
polytheism from the primitive monotheism may be
learned. --Shaff-Herzog.

WHAT A LOAD OF BULLSHIT!

Post by VtSkier
==================================================
monotheism
n : belief in a single God [ant: polytheism]
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)
Monotheism \Mon"o*the*ism\, n. [Mono- + Gr. ? god: cf. F.
monoth['e]isme.]
The doctrine or belief that there is but one God.

WRONG!

Monotheism is the worship of one God. Not belief that there is only one God.
The worship of Athena alone by the people of Athens as the patron of the
city is a form of Monotheism.

Post by VtSkier
==================================================
Note that there is no requirement for worship in the above
definitions, there is only a requirement for belief.

Which is one of the reasons why the definitions are WRONG! Ancient relgion
was NOT a question of belief. The Gods were known to exist because they were
the biological ancestors of the people that worshiped them. It was a
question of honour and worship.

Post by VtSkier
If you believe that there are *more* than one god, you
are a polytheist. If you believe that there is *only*
one god, you are a monotheist. Plain and simple. Herein
aggie tries to once again complicate things to
obfuscate his arguments.

GET AN EDUCATION YOU MORON!

You CANNOT use a modern dictionary to re-define the meaning of words used by
ancient cultures by giving the their modern and completely inappropriate and
misguided and uneducated definitions. In historical science only the ancient
historical meanings apply. The meanings that the ancients themselves
understood.

Monotheism is the worship of one God.

Polytheisim is the worship of more than one God.

The worship of Zeus, Athena and Apollo in their own right is MONOTHEISTIC
worship

The worship of Zeus, Athena and Apollo together is POLYTHEISTIC worship.

The worship of Zeus, and Amon as the same God is SYNCRETISTIC worship.

Post by VtSkier
BTW, I'm not saying that the Jews were not initially
polytheistic and that the OT clearly shows this. The
Schaff-Herzog quote in the definition is a little
unclear in that regard.

You don't know what either polytheistic or monotheistic mean, so what you
say has no validity.

The Jews were originally Polytheists and remain so even to this day. Their
bible names more that 7 different Gods who they still worship today by their
individual names.

The Christians were originally Polytheists like the Jews but became
Syncratists at the time of Constantine.

[VtSkier]

Agamemnon wrote:

(snip)

Post by Agamemnon
GET AN EDUCATION YOU MORON!
You CANNOT use a modern dictionary to re-define the meaning of words
used by ancient cultures by giving the their modern and completely
inappropriate and misguided and uneducated definitions. In historical
science only the ancient historical meanings apply. The meanings that
the ancients themselves understood.

You MUST use common usage for definitions of word in English.
English does not have dictated word meanings like Spanish
and some other languages. The ONLY meanings of words in
English are common usage. YOU are the one who is fucking with
the language and then saying that only you are correct.

I have never read such hogwash in my life.

(snippage of crappage)

[Agamemnon]

Post by VtSkier
(snip)

Post by Agamemnon
GET AN EDUCATION YOU MORON!
You CANNOT use a modern dictionary to re-define the meaning of words used
by ancient cultures by giving the their modern and completely
inappropriate and misguided and uneducated definitions. In historical
science only the ancient historical meanings apply. The meanings that the
ancients themselves understood.

You MUST use common usage for definitions of word in English.

Not if it is a historical translation. You must use historical definitions.

Post by VtSkier
English does not have dictated word meanings like Spanish
and some other languages.

Which is why back in the old days people were taught Greek and Latin so thet
understood the English language properly.

Post by VtSkier
The ONLY meanings of words in
English are common usage.

WRONG! If a text dates to 168 BC then the meanings of the words used in
translation must be those understood for the original words in that time.

Post by VtSkier
YOU are the one who is fucking with
the language and then saying that only you are correct.

No I am not.

Post by VtSkier
I have never read such hogwash in my life.

You have never read anything.

Post by VtSkier
(snippage of crappage)

FOOL!

[Agamemnon]

Post by Agamemnon

Post by VtSkier
(snip)

Post by Agamemnon
GET AN EDUCATION YOU MORON!
You CANNOT use a modern dictionary to re-define the meaning of words
used by ancient cultures by giving the their modern and completely
inappropriate and misguided and uneducated definitions. In historical
science only the ancient historical meanings apply. The meanings that
the ancients themselves understood.

You MUST use common usage for definitions of word in English.

Just to show you how moronic your claim is, suppose you wrote a dissertation
on Beethoven going something like, Beethoven was really wicked and produced
lots of bad tunes, would not be understood by anyone reading it 100 years
time. They'd think Beethoven did nasty things to other people and was an
unpopular composer whose music was rubbish.

Post by Agamemnon
Not if it is a historical translation. You must use historical
definitions.

Post by VtSkier
English does not have dictated word meanings like Spanish
and some other languages.

Which is why back in the old days people were taught Greek and Latin so
thet understood the English language properly.

Post by VtSkier
The ONLY meanings of words in
English are common usage.

WRONG! If a text dates to 168 BC then the meanings of the words used in
translation must be those understood for the original words in that time.

Post by VtSkier
YOU are the one who is fucking with
the language and then saying that only you are correct.

No I am not.

Post by VtSkier
I have never read such hogwash in my life.

You have never read anything.

Post by VtSkier
(snippage of crappage)

FOOL!

[VtSkier]

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Agamemnon

Post by VtSkier
(snip)

Post by Agamemnon
GET AN EDUCATION YOU MORON!
You CANNOT use a modern dictionary to re-define the meaning of words
used by ancient cultures by giving the their modern and completely
inappropriate and misguided and uneducated definitions. In
historical science only the ancient historical meanings apply. The
meanings that the ancients themselves understood.

You MUST use common usage for definitions of word in English.

Just to show you how moronic your claim is, suppose you wrote a
dissertation on Beethoven going something like, Beethoven was really
wicked and produced lots of bad tunes, would not be understood by anyone
reading it 100 years time. They'd think Beethoven did nasty things to
other people and was an unpopular composer whose music was rubbish.

Asshole! I didn't say slang was common usage.

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Agamemnon
Not if it is a historical translation. You must use historical definitions.

Post by VtSkier
English does not have dictated word meanings like Spanish
and some other languages.

Which is why back in the old days people were taught Greek and Latin
so thet understood the English language properly.

Post by VtSkier
The ONLY meanings of words in
English are common usage.

WRONG! If a text dates to 168 BC then the meanings of the words used
in translation must be those understood for the original words in that
time.

Post by VtSkier
YOU are the one who is fucking with
the language and then saying that only you are correct.

No I am not.

Post by VtSkier
I have never read such hogwash in my life.

You have never read anything.

Post by VtSkier
(snippage of crappage)

FOOL!

[Agamemnon]

Post by VtSkier

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Agamemnon

Post by VtSkier
(snip)

Post by Agamemnon
GET AN EDUCATION YOU MORON!
You CANNOT use a modern dictionary to re-define the meaning of words
used by ancient cultures by giving the their modern and completely
inappropriate and misguided and uneducated definitions. In historical
science only the ancient historical meanings apply. The meanings that
the ancients themselves understood.

You MUST use common usage for definitions of word in English.

Just to show you how moronic your claim is, suppose you wrote a
dissertation on Beethoven going something like, Beethoven was really
wicked and produced lots of bad tunes, would not be understood by anyone
reading it 100 years time. They'd think Beethoven did nasty things to
other people and was an unpopular composer whose music was rubbish.

Asshole! I didn't say slang was common usage.

It's not slang. It's common usage in the music industry.

Post by VtSkier

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Agamemnon
Not if it is a historical translation. You must use historical definitions.

Post by VtSkier
English does not have dictated word meanings like Spanish
and some other languages.

Which is why back in the old days people were taught Greek and Latin so
thet understood the English language properly.

Post by VtSkier
The ONLY meanings of words in
English are common usage.

WRONG! If a text dates to 168 BC then the meanings of the words used in
translation must be those understood for the original words in that time.

Post by VtSkier
YOU are the one who is fucking with
the language and then saying that only you are correct.

No I am not.

Post by VtSkier
I have never read such hogwash in my life.

You have never read anything.

Post by VtSkier
(snippage of crappage)

FOOL!

[Martin Edwards]

Post by VtSkier
(snip)

Post by Agamemnon
GET AN EDUCATION YOU MORON!
You CANNOT use a modern dictionary to re-define the meaning of words
used by ancient cultures by giving the their modern and completely
inappropriate and misguided and uneducated definitions. In historical
science only the ancient historical meanings apply. The meanings that
the ancients themselves understood.

You MUST use common usage for definitions of word in English.
English does not have dictated word meanings like Spanish
and some other languages. The ONLY meanings of words in
English are common usage. YOU are the one who is fucking with
the language and then saying that only you are correct.
I have never read such hogwash in my life.
(snippage of crappage)

He is a Cypriot. He grew up doing the same thing with Greek.

[Agamemnon]

Post by Martin Edwards

Post by VtSkier
(snip)

Post by Agamemnon
GET AN EDUCATION YOU MORON!
You CANNOT use a modern dictionary to re-define the meaning of words
used by ancient cultures by giving the their modern and completely
inappropriate and misguided and uneducated definitions. In historical
science only the ancient historical meanings apply. The meanings that
the ancients themselves understood.

You MUST use common usage for definitions of word in English.
English does not have dictated word meanings like Spanish
and some other languages. The ONLY meanings of words in
English are common usage. YOU are the one who is fucking with
the language and then saying that only you are correct.
I have never read such hogwash in my life.
(snippage of crappage)

He is a Cypriot. He grew up doing the same thing with Greek.

RACIST IMBECILE!

Post by Martin Edwards
--
Corporate society looks after everything. All it asks of anyone, all it
has ever asked of anyone, is that they do not interfere with management
decisions. -From “Rollerball”

[Martin Edwards]

Post by Martin Edwards

Post by VtSkier
(snip)

Post by Agamemnon
GET AN EDUCATION YOU MORON!
You CANNOT use a modern dictionary to re-define the meaning of words
used by ancient cultures by giving the their modern and completely
inappropriate and misguided and uneducated definitions. In
historical science only the ancient historical meanings apply. The
meanings that the ancients themselves understood.

You MUST use common usage for definitions of word in English.
English does not have dictated word meanings like Spanish
and some other languages. The ONLY meanings of words in
English are common usage. YOU are the one who is fucking with
the language and then saying that only you are correct.
I have never read such hogwash in my life.
(snippage of crappage)

He is a Cypriot. He grew up doing the same thing with Greek.

Terrorist.

[Martin Edwards]

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
Is there any validity to the following, which was posted by

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.history.ancient/msg/d99e4b6a9deec2f0?

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
=================
There were no such things a Orthodox Jews at the time of the
Maccabbees. Orthodox Judaism was invented in the middle

ages. At

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
the
time of the Maccabbees the Jews were polytheistic and always
hade
been
and two main factions of Jews dominated both of which wanted to
control the temple. One faction worshiped Baal Shamen who they
identified with Zeus (who was also syncretised with Zeus

Belus >> >> >> or

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
Dushara in Arabic, the son of El) whereas another faction >>

worshiped

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
Elyon his father who was syncretised with El (Alohi in

Hebrew or

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
Allah
in Arabic and referred to as Orotalt by Herodotus) who was identified
by the Jews with Dionysus.
The Jews who worshiped Dionysus El Elyon were allied with the
Ptolemaic Egyptians and were admitted into the mysteries and branded
with the Ivy Leaf symbol of Dionysus. Those that supported the claim
of Zeus Baal Shamen to the temple worshiped were allied with

the

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
Seleucids. The temple was in fact original the temple of

Elyon >> >> >> and

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
Judas Maccabbee led the Jews that worshiped Dionysus to

retake >> >> >> if

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
from
those that wanted to worship Baal Shamen there instead. From

the

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
First
Book of Maccabbees we know that when Judas finally capture the temple
he celebrated by worshiping Elyon by waving wands covered

with >> >> >> ivy,

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
which of course was the Thyrsus as carried by Dionysus and his
followers.

Very little.
In June 1986 archaeologists of Tel Aviv University announced discovery
of two small silver scolls or amulets. These two silver

scrolls >> >> > were

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW
found in 1979 deep inside a burial cave at a site known as Ketef
Hinnom,
west of the old city of Jerusalem. They were hidden at the

back >> >> > of

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW
the
tomb embedded in pottery fashioned as early as the seventh >>

century

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW
BC.
Seven years later the fragile silver scrolls were opened and
their
texts
deciphered. The silver scrolls contain an excerpt from Numbers 6:24-26,
also known as the Priestly Benediction. In English the verses
=3FThe
LORD bless you and keep you; The LORD make His face shine

upon >> >> > you,

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW
And
be gracious to you; The LORD lift up His countenance upon

you, >> >> > And

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW
give

And this proves what?
Assuming it's not a forgery,

It is not. It is out of a authorized dig.

So? There have been forgeries from other authorised digs.

Anything is possible but it is unlikely to be a forgery if it is

from > an

Post by SolomonW
authorized dig. Note there have been real articles from unauthorized
digs too.

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
all that it says is "Jehovah make His face
shine upon you, And be gracious to you; Jehovah lift up His
countenance
upon
you, And give you peace." So what? This was just one God being
invoked
out

(a)

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
of many. It's no different to Linear B inscriptions which just invoke
Poseidon or Athena or quoting part of the Homeric Hymns to

Demeter >> >> or

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
Apollo
or Dionysus.

Show me some Linear B inscriptions that you are thinking of?

http://projectsx.dartmouth.edu/history/bronze_age/lessons/les/25.html

Does not load up.

(b)

Post by Dom
http://www.csun.edu/~hcfll004/mycen.html

There is nothing here about hymns that you spoke about! See (a) above
for what you claim!

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW
=3F[=3F] May Yahweh bless you [and] keep you. May Yahweh

cause >> >> > his

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW
face
to
shine [on you] =3F].=3F

It's pronounced Jehovah. That is how the name of translations

of >> >> the

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
names
of Pharaohs Meruserenre Yakubher and Yakobaam Sekkhaenre imply.

No it is Yahweh

Wrong. It's Jehovah. Bhe and baa from the Hieroglyphics indicate

that >> the

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon
original b is a v sound in Hebrew. In Greek the name is rendered

Ieuo,

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon
where
eu is pronounced ev. There is no evidence of a digamma or w.

Post by SolomonW
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh

Anyone can edid Wikipedia.

Not the reference on the bottom of the page.

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW
=3F[=3F] May Yahweh bless you and keep you. May Yahweh cause his
face
to
shine [on] you and give you peace [=3F].=3F
The location of the find of the silver scrolls and analysis

of >> >> > the

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW
Hebrew on the scrolls confirm a date close to 600 BCE, perhaps
earlier
=3F
long before the capture of Jerusalem and the Babylonian exile.
They were Monothesist back in the 600 BCE long before these
events
that
Agamemnon wrote above.

POPPYCOCK!
Why would they invoke the name of every God when this was just a
prayer
to
Jehovah?
The Elephantine letters clearly show that the Jews were >> >>

polytheistic

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
and
the
Jehovah had a wife called Assura or Astarte who was worshiped in Starto's
Tower ie. Astarte's Tower which is referred to by Josephus and Maccabbees
and where the Al Aqsa Mosque is built today. On top of that

next to

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
the
Jewish temple stood the temple of Asklepius or Eshmun and there were
numerous shrines to Tammuz and Osiris who the Jews associated with Adonai
who was Adonis or Baal Hadad (Adodus according to Philo) who

from >> >> the

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
Baal
Epic we know rose from the dead just like Tammuz, Osiris and

Adonis

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
due
to
the efforts of his wife Anat the daughter of El who is probably

the

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
same
person as the Arab Goddess Alilat.

Where does the Elephantine letters say this?

At the bottom where it invokes Jehovah and his Assura.

It is debatable about the Elephantine community some scholars claiming
that they are of mixed Judaeo-Samaritan origins. In any case they were

There were no such things as Jews before Judas Maccabbee. The Jewish
religion as we know it did not exist until after Titus destroyed the temple
of Elyon. From your inscriptions it is clear that Samaria was the centre of
the Jehovah cult whereas Jerusalem was the centre of the El and Elyon cults.

What inscription did I quote that shows this?

The Jehovah shines inscription.

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW
long before the period of the Maccabbees.

400 BC. Maccabbees were 168-65 BC.

Which is my point. The Jews at Elephantine were hundreds years earier.

HOGWASH! The Jews of Elephantine were there hundreds of years before the
Maccabbees and were polytheistic.
"From the fact, however, that their priests used to chant to the music
of flutes and cymbals, and to wear garlands of ivy, and that a golden
vine was found in the temple, some have thought that they worshipped
father Liber (ie. Dionysus/El Elyon), the conqueror of the East, though
their institutions do not by any means harmonize with the theory; for
Liber established a festive and cheerful worship, while the Jewish
religion is tasteless and mean." (Tacitus, Histories V)
"We are told that the rest of the seventh day was adopted, because this
day brought with it a termination of their toils; after a while the
charm of indolence beguilded them into giving up the seventh year also
to inaction. But others say that it is an observance in honour of Saturn
(ie. Baal Shamun), either from the primitive elements of their faith
having been transmitted from the Idaei, who are said to have shared the
flight of that God, and to have founded the race, or from the
circumstance that of the seven stars which rule the destinies of men
Saturn moves in the highest orbit and with the mightiest power, and that
many of the heavenly bodies complete their revolutions and courses in
multiples of seven." (Tacitus, Histories V)

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW
Certainly a reading of the old testament shows that the ancient

Jews > did

Post by SolomonW
worship other Gods. But it does not mean that the ideal of monotheism
did not exist.

Everyone in ancient times was monotheistic. The people who worshiped Zeus
were monotheists.

Hardly as the list you supplied at (b) above is titled
"MYCENAEAN DIVINITIES"

So? Each were worshiped as INDIVIDUALS in their own right. That is
Monotheism. The Jews after the time of the Maccabbees syncretised 7 of
their Gods and worshiped them together as one. That is Polytheism.

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
Those that worshiped Amon were monotheists. Those that
worshiped Dagon were monotheists. Monotheism did not mean the worship of
just one God. It meant the worship any God in their own right without
associating/syncretising them with others. Read the Koran. You shall not
associate the name of Allah (Alohi/El) with any other God. Allah was not
Zeus and was not Jehovah and was not Hubal. Allah was just Allah. That is
monotheism.

Not true then or now. To a Muslim, Allah in Islam is a universal god.

Not in the time of Mohammed. Allah had a wife, Alilat, and two daughters
and even Mohammed recognised them and signed a declaration to that
effect in the so-called "Satanic Verses." One of those daughters Manat
was married to Hubal (Apollo) and the other was Usa.

Three. Have you thought upon Al-lat, Uzzah and Manat? K53:19-20. Verse
23 says that they are imaginary. It is not widely known that these
verses are discussed all the time by scholars regarded as qualified.
Salman Rushdie was persecuted for letting the cat out of the bag.

[Agamemnon]

Post by Martin Edwards

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
Is there any validity to the following, which was posted by

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.history.ancient/msg/d99e4b6a9deec2f0?

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
=================
There were no such things a Orthodox Jews at the time of the
Maccabbees. Orthodox Judaism was invented in the middle

ages. At

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
the
time of the Maccabbees the Jews were polytheistic and always
hade
been
and two main factions of Jews dominated both of which wanted to
control the temple. One faction worshiped Baal Shamen who they
identified with Zeus (who was also syncretised with Zeus

Belus >> >> >> or

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
Dushara in Arabic, the son of El) whereas another faction >>

worshiped

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
Elyon his father who was syncretised with El (Alohi in

Hebrew or

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
Allah
in Arabic and referred to as Orotalt by Herodotus) who was
identified
by the Jews with Dionysus.
The Jews who worshiped Dionysus El Elyon were allied with the
Ptolemaic Egyptians and were admitted into the mysteries and
branded
with the Ivy Leaf symbol of Dionysus. Those that supported the
claim
of Zeus Baal Shamen to the temple worshiped were allied with

the

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
Seleucids. The temple was in fact original the temple of

Elyon >> >> >> and

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
Judas Maccabbee led the Jews that worshiped Dionysus to

retake >> >> >> if

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
from
those that wanted to worship Baal Shamen there instead. From

the

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
First
Book of Maccabbees we know that when Judas finally capture the
temple
he celebrated by worshiping Elyon by waving wands covered

with >> >> >> ivy,

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
which of course was the Thyrsus as carried by Dionysus and his
followers.

Very little.
In June 1986 archaeologists of Tel Aviv University announced
discovery
of two small silver scolls or amulets. These two silver

scrolls >> >> > were

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW
found in 1979 deep inside a burial cave at a site known as Ketef
Hinnom,
west of the old city of Jerusalem. They were hidden at the

back >> >> > of

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW
the
tomb embedded in pottery fashioned as early as the seventh >>

century

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW
BC.
Seven years later the fragile silver scrolls were opened and
their
texts
deciphered. The silver scrolls contain an excerpt from Numbers
6:24-26,
also known as the Priestly Benediction. In English the verses
=3FThe
LORD bless you and keep you; The LORD make His face shine

upon >> >> > you,

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW
And
be gracious to you; The LORD lift up His countenance upon

you, >> >> > And

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW
give

And this proves what?
Assuming it's not a forgery,

It is not. It is out of a authorized dig.

So? There have been forgeries from other authorised digs.

Anything is possible but it is unlikely to be a forgery if it is

from > an

Post by SolomonW
authorized dig. Note there have been real articles from unauthorized
digs too.

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
all that it says is "Jehovah make His face
shine upon you, And be gracious to you; Jehovah lift up His
countenance
upon
you, And give you peace." So what? This was just one God being
invoked
out

(a)

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
of many. It's no different to Linear B inscriptions which just invoke
Poseidon or Athena or quoting part of the Homeric Hymns to

Demeter >> >> or

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
Apollo
or Dionysus.

Show me some Linear B inscriptions that you are thinking of?

http://projectsx.dartmouth.edu/history/bronze_age/lessons/les/25.html

Does not load up.

(b)

Post by Dom
http://www.csun.edu/~hcfll004/mycen.html

There is nothing here about hymns that you spoke about! See (a) above
for what you claim!

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW
=3F[=3F] May Yahweh bless you [and] keep you. May Yahweh

cause >> >> > his

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW
face
to
shine [on you] =3F].=3F

It's pronounced Jehovah. That is how the name of translations

of >> >> the

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
names
of Pharaohs Meruserenre Yakubher and Yakobaam Sekkhaenre imply.

No it is Yahweh

Wrong. It's Jehovah. Bhe and baa from the Hieroglyphics indicate

that >> the

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon
original b is a v sound in Hebrew. In Greek the name is rendered

Ieuo,

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon
where
eu is pronounced ev. There is no evidence of a digamma or w.

Post by SolomonW
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh

Anyone can edid Wikipedia.

Not the reference on the bottom of the page.

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW
=3F[=3F] May Yahweh bless you and keep you. May Yahweh cause his
face
to
shine [on] you and give you peace [=3F].=3F
The location of the find of the silver scrolls and analysis

of >> >> > the

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW
Hebrew on the scrolls confirm a date close to 600 BCE, perhaps
earlier
=3F
long before the capture of Jerusalem and the Babylonian exile.
They were Monothesist back in the 600 BCE long before these
events
that
Agamemnon wrote above.

POPPYCOCK!
Why would they invoke the name of every God when this was just a
prayer
to
Jehovah?
The Elephantine letters clearly show that the Jews were >> >>

polytheistic

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
and
the
Jehovah had a wife called Assura or Astarte who was worshiped in Starto's
Tower ie. Astarte's Tower which is referred to by Josephus and Maccabbees
and where the Al Aqsa Mosque is built today. On top of that

next to

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
the
Jewish temple stood the temple of Asklepius or Eshmun and there were
numerous shrines to Tammuz and Osiris who the Jews associated
with
Adonai
who was Adonis or Baal Hadad (Adodus according to Philo) who

from >> >> the

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
Baal
Epic we know rose from the dead just like Tammuz, Osiris and

Adonis

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
due
to
the efforts of his wife Anat the daughter of El who is probably

the

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
same
person as the Arab Goddess Alilat.

Where does the Elephantine letters say this?

At the bottom where it invokes Jehovah and his Assura.

It is debatable about the Elephantine community some scholars claiming
that they are of mixed Judaeo-Samaritan origins. In any case they were

There were no such things as Jews before Judas Maccabbee. The Jewish
religion as we know it did not exist until after Titus destroyed the temple
of Elyon. From your inscriptions it is clear that Samaria was the centre of
the Jehovah cult whereas Jerusalem was the centre of the El and Elyon cults.

What inscription did I quote that shows this?

The Jehovah shines inscription.

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW
long before the period of the Maccabbees.

400 BC. Maccabbees were 168-65 BC.

Which is my point. The Jews at Elephantine were hundreds years earier.

HOGWASH! The Jews of Elephantine were there hundreds of years before the
Maccabbees and were polytheistic.
"From the fact, however, that their priests used to chant to the music of
flutes and cymbals, and to wear garlands of ivy, and that a golden vine
was found in the temple, some have thought that they worshipped father
Liber (ie. Dionysus/El Elyon), the conqueror of the East, though their
institutions do not by any means harmonize with the theory; for Liber
established a festive and cheerful worship, while the Jewish religion is
tasteless and mean." (Tacitus, Histories V)
"We are told that the rest of the seventh day was adopted, because this
day brought with it a termination of their toils; after a while the charm
of indolence beguilded them into giving up the seventh year also to
inaction. But others say that it is an observance in honour of Saturn
(ie. Baal Shamun), either from the primitive elements of their faith
having been transmitted from the Idaei, who are said to have shared the
flight of that God, and to have founded the race, or from the
circumstance that of the seven stars which rule the destinies of men
Saturn moves in the highest orbit and with the mightiest power, and that
many of the heavenly bodies complete their revolutions and courses in
multiples of seven." (Tacitus, Histories V)

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW
Certainly a reading of the old testament shows that the ancient

Jews > did

Post by SolomonW
worship other Gods. But it does not mean that the ideal of monotheism
did not exist.

Everyone in ancient times was monotheistic. The people who worshiped Zeus
were monotheists.

Hardly as the list you supplied at (b) above is titled
"MYCENAEAN DIVINITIES"

So? Each were worshiped as INDIVIDUALS in their own right. That is
Monotheism. The Jews after the time of the Maccabbees syncretised 7 of
their Gods and worshiped them together as one. That is Polytheism.

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
Those that worshiped Amon were monotheists. Those that
worshiped Dagon were monotheists. Monotheism did not mean the worship of
just one God. It meant the worship any God in their own right without
associating/syncretising them with others. Read the Koran. You shall not
associate the name of Allah (Alohi/El) with any other God. Allah was not
Zeus and was not Jehovah and was not Hubal. Allah was just Allah. That is
monotheism.

Not true then or now. To a Muslim, Allah in Islam is a universal god.

Not in the time of Mohammed. Allah had a wife, Alilat, and two daughters
and even Mohammed recognised them and signed a declaration to that effect
in the so-called "Satanic Verses." One of those daughters Manat was
married to Hubal (Apollo) and the other was Usa.

Three. Have you thought upon Al-lat, Uzzah and Manat? K53:19-20. Verse
23 says that they are imaginary. It is not widely known that these

Not before Mohammed had already accepted their existence as being genuine
and signed a treaty to that effect and then breached his own word.

Post by Martin Edwards
verses are discussed all the time by scholars regarded as qualified.
Salman Rushdie was persecuted for letting the cat out of the bag.

Salman Rushdie tried to make money out of it.

[Martin Edwards]

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Martin Edwards

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
Is there any validity to the following, which was posted by

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.history.ancient/msg/d99e4b6a9deec2f0?

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
=================
There were no such things a Orthodox Jews at the time of the
Maccabbees. Orthodox Judaism was invented in the middle

ages. At

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
the
time of the Maccabbees the Jews were polytheistic and

always >> >> >> hade

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
been
and two main factions of Jews dominated both of which

wanted >> >> >> to

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
control the temple. One faction worshiped Baal Shamen who

they

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
identified with Zeus (who was also syncretised with Zeus

Belus >> >> >> or

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
Dushara in Arabic, the son of El) whereas another faction >>

worshiped

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
Elyon his father who was syncretised with El (Alohi in

Hebrew or

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
Allah
in Arabic and referred to as Orotalt by Herodotus) who was
identified
by the Jews with Dionysus.
The Jews who worshiped Dionysus El Elyon were allied with the
Ptolemaic Egyptians and were admitted into the mysteries and
branded
with the Ivy Leaf symbol of Dionysus. Those that supported

the

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
claim
of Zeus Baal Shamen to the temple worshiped were allied with

the

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
Seleucids. The temple was in fact original the temple of

Elyon >> >> >> and

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
Judas Maccabbee led the Jews that worshiped Dionysus to

retake >> >> >> if

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
from
those that wanted to worship Baal Shamen there instead. From

the

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
First
Book of Maccabbees we know that when Judas finally capture

the

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
temple
he celebrated by worshiping Elyon by waving wands covered

with >> >> >> ivy,

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
which of course was the Thyrsus as carried by Dionysus and

his

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
followers.

Very little.
In June 1986 archaeologists of Tel Aviv University announced
discovery
of two small silver scolls or amulets. These two silver

scrolls >> >> > were

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW
found in 1979 deep inside a burial cave at a site known as Ketef
Hinnom,
west of the old city of Jerusalem. They were hidden at the

back >> >> > of

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW
the
tomb embedded in pottery fashioned as early as the seventh >>

century

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW
BC.
Seven years later the fragile silver scrolls were opened

and >> >> > their

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW
texts
deciphered. The silver scrolls contain an excerpt from Numbers
6:24-26,
also known as the Priestly Benediction. In English the
=3FThe
LORD bless you and keep you; The LORD make His face shine

upon >> >> > you,

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW
And
be gracious to you; The LORD lift up His countenance upon

you, >> >> > And

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW
give

And this proves what?
Assuming it's not a forgery,

It is not. It is out of a authorized dig.

So? There have been forgeries from other authorised digs.

Anything is possible but it is unlikely to be a forgery if it is

from > an

Post by SolomonW
authorized dig. Note there have been real articles from unauthorized
digs too.

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
all that it says is "Jehovah make His face
shine upon you, And be gracious to you; Jehovah lift up His
countenance
upon
you, And give you peace." So what? This was just one God

being >> >> invoked

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
out

(a)

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
of many. It's no different to Linear B inscriptions which

just >> >> invoke

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
Poseidon or Athena or quoting part of the Homeric Hymns to

Demeter >> >> or

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
Apollo
or Dionysus.

Show me some Linear B inscriptions that you are thinking of?

http://projectsx.dartmouth.edu/history/bronze_age/lessons/les/25.html

Post by SolomonW
Does not load up.

(b)

Post by Dom
http://www.csun.edu/~hcfll004/mycen.html

There is nothing here about hymns that you spoke about! See (a) above
for what you claim!

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW
=3F[=3F] May Yahweh bless you [and] keep you. May Yahweh

cause >> >> > his

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW
face
to
shine [on you] =3F].=3F

It's pronounced Jehovah. That is how the name of translations

of >> >> the

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
names
of Pharaohs Meruserenre Yakubher and Yakobaam Sekkhaenre imply.

No it is Yahweh

Wrong. It's Jehovah. Bhe and baa from the Hieroglyphics indicate

that >> the

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon
original b is a v sound in Hebrew. In Greek the name is rendered

Ieuo,

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon
where
eu is pronounced ev. There is no evidence of a digamma or w.

Post by SolomonW
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh

Anyone can edid Wikipedia.

Not the reference on the bottom of the page.

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW
=3F[=3F] May Yahweh bless you and keep you. May Yahweh

cause >> >> > his

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW
face
to
shine [on] you and give you peace [=3F].=3F
The location of the find of the silver scrolls and analysis

of >> >> > the

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW
Hebrew on the scrolls confirm a date close to 600 BCE, perhaps
earlier
=3F
long before the capture of Jerusalem and the Babylonian exile.
They were Monothesist back in the 600 BCE long before these
events
that
Agamemnon wrote above.

POPPYCOCK!
Why would they invoke the name of every God when this was just a
prayer
to
Jehovah?
The Elephantine letters clearly show that the Jews were >> >>

polytheistic

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
and
the
Jehovah had a wife called Assura or Astarte who was worshiped in
Starto's
Tower ie. Astarte's Tower which is referred to by Josephus and
Maccabbees
and where the Al Aqsa Mosque is built today. On top of that

next to

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
the
Jewish temple stood the temple of Asklepius or Eshmun and

there >> >> were

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
numerous shrines to Tammuz and Osiris who the Jews associated
with
Adonai
who was Adonis or Baal Hadad (Adodus according to Philo) who

from >> >> the

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
Baal
Epic we know rose from the dead just like Tammuz, Osiris and

Adonis

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
due
to
the efforts of his wife Anat the daughter of El who is probably

the

Post by SolomonW

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
same
person as the Arab Goddess Alilat.

Where does the Elephantine letters say this?

At the bottom where it invokes Jehovah and his Assura.

It is debatable about the Elephantine community some scholars >

claiming

Post by SolomonW
that they are of mixed Judaeo-Samaritan origins. In any case they were

There were no such things as Jews before Judas Maccabbee. The Jewish
religion as we know it did not exist until after Titus destroyed the temple
of Elyon. From your inscriptions it is clear that Samaria was the centre of
the Jehovah cult whereas Jerusalem was the centre of the El and Elyon cults.

What inscription did I quote that shows this?

The Jehovah shines inscription.

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW
long before the period of the Maccabbees.

400 BC. Maccabbees were 168-65 BC.

Which is my point. The Jews at Elephantine were hundreds years earier.

HOGWASH! The Jews of Elephantine were there hundreds of years before
the Maccabbees and were polytheistic.
"From the fact, however, that their priests used to chant to the
music of flutes and cymbals, and to wear garlands of ivy, and that a
golden vine was found in the temple, some have thought that they
worshipped father Liber (ie. Dionysus/El Elyon), the conqueror of the
East, though their institutions do not by any means harmonize with
the theory; for Liber established a festive and cheerful worship,
while the Jewish religion is tasteless and mean." (Tacitus, Histories V)
"We are told that the rest of the seventh day was adopted, because
this day brought with it a termination of their toils; after a while
the charm of indolence beguilded them into giving up the seventh year
also to inaction. But others say that it is an observance in honour
of Saturn (ie. Baal Shamun), either from the primitive elements of
their faith having been transmitted from the Idaei, who are said to
have shared the flight of that God, and to have founded the race, or
from the circumstance that of the seven stars which rule the
destinies of men Saturn moves in the highest orbit and with the
mightiest power, and that many of the heavenly bodies complete their
revolutions and courses in multiples of seven." (Tacitus, Histories V)

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom

Post by SolomonW
Certainly a reading of the old testament shows that the ancient

Jews > did

Post by SolomonW
worship other Gods. But it does not mean that the ideal of

monotheism

Post by SolomonW
did not exist.

Everyone in ancient times was monotheistic. The people who
worshiped Zeus
were monotheists.

Hardly as the list you supplied at (b) above is titled
"MYCENAEAN DIVINITIES"

So? Each were worshiped as INDIVIDUALS in their own right. That is
Monotheism. The Jews after the time of the Maccabbees syncretised 7
of their Gods and worshiped them together as one. That is Polytheism.

Post by SolomonW

Post by Dom
Those that worshiped Amon were monotheists. Those that
worshiped Dagon were monotheists. Monotheism did not mean the worship of
just one God. It meant the worship any God in their own right without
associating/syncretising them with others. Read the Koran. You shall not
associate the name of Allah (Alohi/El) with any other God. Allah was not
Zeus and was not Jehovah and was not Hubal. Allah was just Allah. That is
monotheism.

Not true then or now. To a Muslim, Allah in Islam is a universal god.

Not in the time of Mohammed. Allah had a wife, Alilat, and two
daughters and even Mohammed recognised them and signed a declaration
to that effect in the so-called "Satanic Verses." One of those
daughters Manat was married to Hubal (Apollo) and the other was Usa.

Three. Have you thought upon Al-lat, Uzzah and Manat? K53:19-20.
Verse 23 says that they are imaginary. It is not widely known that these

Not before Mohammed had already accepted their existence as being
genuine and signed a treaty to that effect and then breached his own word.

Post by Martin Edwards
verses are discussed all the time by scholars regarded as qualified.
Salman Rushdie was persecuted for letting the cat out of the bag.

Salman Rushdie tried to make money out of it.

That is what professional writers do, as I understand it. That does not
negate my previous statement.

[Matt Giwer]

...

Post by Martin Edwards

Post by Agamemnon

Post by SolomonW
Not true then or now. To a Muslim, Allah in Islam is a universal god.

Not in the time of Mohammed. Allah had a wife, Alilat, and two
daughters and even Mohammed recognised them and signed a declaration
to that effect in the so-called "Satanic Verses." One of those
daughters Manat was married to Hubal (Apollo) and the other was Usa.

Three. Have you thought upon Al-lat, Uzzah and Manat? K53:19-20. Verse
23 says that they are imaginary. It is not widely known that these
verses are discussed all the time by scholars regarded as qualified.
Salman Rushdie was persecuted for letting the cat out of the bag.

May I point out that for a century after his death the only writings were held
by a single family. The first external copy of it was released a century later
to the man who conquered Persia.

It is no more credible to rely upon the Koran than on the bible for consistency.

[Matt Giwer]

SolomonW wrote:
...

Post by SolomonW
In June 1986 archaeologists of Tel Aviv University announced discovery
of two small silver scolls or amulets. These two silver scrolls were
found in 1979 deep inside a burial cave at a site known as Ketef Hinnom,
west of the old city of Jerusalem. They were hidden at the back of the
tomb embedded in pottery fashioned as early as the seventh century BC.
Seven years later the fragile silver scrolls were opened and their texts
deciphered. The silver scrolls contain an excerpt from Numbers 6:24-26,
also known as the Priestly Benediction. In English the verses read: =3FThe
LORD bless you and keep you; The LORD make His face shine upon you, And
be gracious to you; The LORD lift up His countenance upon you, And give
=3F[=3F] May Yahweh bless you [and] keep you. May Yahweh cause his face to
shine [on you] =3F].=3F
=3F[=3F] May Yahweh bless you and keep you. May Yahweh cause his face to
shine [on] you and give you peace [=3F].=3F

Problem is the Psalm is TRANSLATED Yahweh. The scroll says Lord, Adoni. The
first commandment in "Hebrew" says, I Adoni am thy god. And as to the
translation Yahweh Elohim (im indicating plural) is translated Lord God, meaning
Yahweh is the word for Lord. The Septuagint has the first commandment as, I am
the lord thy god, or I am the Adoni your god.

Post by SolomonW
The location of the find of the silver scrolls and analysis of the
Hebrew on the scrolls confirm a date close to 600 BCE, perhaps earlier =3F
long before the capture of Jerusalem and the Babylonian exile.
They were Monothesist back in the 600 BCE long before these events that
Agamemnon wrote above.

The chief god Amun of Egypt was the first god who created the other gods. There
were not gods before him which takes us back to the 1st of the big ten
commandments. He created man from clay and breathed life into them which takes
us to the 6th day of creation in Genesis. By the middle of the 2nd millennium BC
Amun and Ra had become a joint deity, Amun-Ra. Ra the sun god. May his light
shine upon you.

The scroll is clearly an invocation of Amun-Ra. The psalm is the ONLY mention
of light in connection with this Yahweh. But then Yahweh does not mean Yahweh.

So the most you are doing is making an issue over inconsistent translations of
the same word as either Adoni, Lord or Yahweh. The only problem with translating
"old hebrew" is fitting it into modern false ideas of the religion of the region.

[Larry Swain]

Post by Dom
Is there any validity to the following, which was posted by
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.history.ancient/msg/d99e4b6a9deec2f0?
=================
There were no such things a Orthodox Jews at the time of the
Maccabbees. Orthodox Judaism was invented in the middle ages. At the
time of the Maccabbees the Jews were polytheistic and always hade been
and two main factions of Jews dominated both of which wanted to
control the temple. One faction worshiped Baal Shamen who they
identified with Zeus (who was also syncretised with Zeus Belus or
Dushara in Arabic, the son of El) whereas another faction worshiped
Elyon his father who was syncretised with El (Alohi in Hebrew or Allah
in Arabic and referred to as Orotalt by Herodotus) who was identified
by the Jews with Dionysus.
The Jews who worshiped Dionysus El Elyon were allied with the
Ptolemaic Egyptians and were admitted into the mysteries and branded
with the Ivy Leaf symbol of Dionysus. Those that supported the claim
of Zeus Baal Shamen to the temple worshiped were allied with the
Seleucids. The temple was in fact original the temple of Elyon and
Judas Maccabbee led the Jews that worshiped Dionysus to retake if from
those that wanted to worship Baal Shamen there instead. From the First
Book of Maccabbees we know that when Judas finally capture the temple
he celebrated by worshiping Elyon by waving wands covered with ivy,
which of course was the Thyrsus as carried by Dionysus and his
followers.

Its posted by Agamemnon, that should answer your question.

There are several good works that cover this period and would answer
your question. I'd recommend Martin Hengel's Judaism and Hellenism as
perhaps one of the best and most accessible.

[Agamemnon]

Post by Larry Swain

Post by Dom
Is there any validity to the following, which was posted by
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.history.ancient/msg/d99e4b6a9deec2f0?
=================
There were no such things a Orthodox Jews at the time of the
Maccabbees. Orthodox Judaism was invented in the middle ages. At the
time of the Maccabbees the Jews were polytheistic and always hade been
and two main factions of Jews dominated both of which wanted to
control the temple. One faction worshiped Baal Shamen who they
identified with Zeus (who was also syncretised with Zeus Belus or
Dushara in Arabic, the son of El) whereas another faction worshiped
Elyon his father who was syncretised with El (Alohi in Hebrew or Allah
in Arabic and referred to as Orotalt by Herodotus) who was identified
by the Jews with Dionysus.
The Jews who worshiped Dionysus El Elyon were allied with the
Ptolemaic Egyptians and were admitted into the mysteries and branded
with the Ivy Leaf symbol of Dionysus. Those that supported the claim
of Zeus Baal Shamen to the temple worshiped were allied with the
Seleucids. The temple was in fact original the temple of Elyon and
Judas Maccabbee led the Jews that worshiped Dionysus to retake if from
those that wanted to worship Baal Shamen there instead. From the First
Book of Maccabbees we know that when Judas finally capture the temple
he celebrated by worshiping Elyon by waving wands covered with ivy,
which of course was the Thyrsus as carried by Dionysus and his
followers.

Its posted by Agamemnon, that should answer your question.
There are several good works that cover this period and would answer your
question. I'd recommend Martin Hengel's Judaism and Hellenism as perhaps
one of the best and most accessible.

No it wouldn't. The primary and secondary historical texts at the best and
most accessible sources. Martin Hengel PERSONAL OPINION has no historical
validity whatsoever. He was not a primary witness not had he spoke to
primary witnesses like for example Herodotus does or Eusebius knows.

[Larry Swain]

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Larry Swain

Post by Dom
Is there any validity to the following, which was posted by
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.history.ancient/msg/d99e4b6a9deec2f0?
=================
There were no such things a Orthodox Jews at the time of the
Maccabbees. Orthodox Judaism was invented in the middle ages. At the
time of the Maccabbees the Jews were polytheistic and always hade been
and two main factions of Jews dominated both of which wanted to
control the temple. One faction worshiped Baal Shamen who they
identified with Zeus (who was also syncretised with Zeus Belus or
Dushara in Arabic, the son of El) whereas another faction worshiped
Elyon his father who was syncretised with El (Alohi in Hebrew or Allah
in Arabic and referred to as Orotalt by Herodotus) who was identified
by the Jews with Dionysus.
The Jews who worshiped Dionysus El Elyon were allied with the
Ptolemaic Egyptians and were admitted into the mysteries and branded
with the Ivy Leaf symbol of Dionysus. Those that supported the claim
of Zeus Baal Shamen to the temple worshiped were allied with the
Seleucids. The temple was in fact original the temple of Elyon and
Judas Maccabbee led the Jews that worshiped Dionysus to retake if from
those that wanted to worship Baal Shamen there instead. From the First
Book of Maccabbees we know that when Judas finally capture the temple
he celebrated by worshiping Elyon by waving wands covered with ivy,
which of course was the Thyrsus as carried by Dionysus and his
followers.

Its posted by Agamemnon, that should answer your question.
There are several good works that cover this period and would answer
your question. I'd recommend Martin Hengel's Judaism and Hellenism as
perhaps one of the best and most accessible.

No it wouldn't. The primary and secondary historical texts at the best
and most accessible sources. Martin Hengel PERSONAL OPINION has no
historical validity whatsoever. He was not a primary witness not had he
spoke to primary witnesses like for example Herodotus does or Eusebius
knows.

Your opinion about what the primary texts say is of even less interest.

[Agamemnon]

Post by Larry Swain

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Larry Swain

Post by Dom
Is there any validity to the following, which was posted by
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.history.ancient/msg/d99e4b6a9deec2f0?
=================
There were no such things a Orthodox Jews at the time of the
Maccabbees. Orthodox Judaism was invented in the middle ages. At the
time of the Maccabbees the Jews were polytheistic and always hade been
and two main factions of Jews dominated both of which wanted to
control the temple. One faction worshiped Baal Shamen who they
identified with Zeus (who was also syncretised with Zeus Belus or
Dushara in Arabic, the son of El) whereas another faction worshiped
Elyon his father who was syncretised with El (Alohi in Hebrew or Allah
in Arabic and referred to as Orotalt by Herodotus) who was identified
by the Jews with Dionysus.
The Jews who worshiped Dionysus El Elyon were allied with the
Ptolemaic Egyptians and were admitted into the mysteries and branded
with the Ivy Leaf symbol of Dionysus. Those that supported the claim
of Zeus Baal Shamen to the temple worshiped were allied with the
Seleucids. The temple was in fact original the temple of Elyon and
Judas Maccabbee led the Jews that worshiped Dionysus to retake if from
those that wanted to worship Baal Shamen there instead. From the First
Book of Maccabbees we know that when Judas finally capture the temple
he celebrated by worshiping Elyon by waving wands covered with ivy,
which of course was the Thyrsus as carried by Dionysus and his
followers.

Its posted by Agamemnon, that should answer your question.
There are several good works that cover this period and would answer
your question. I'd recommend Martin Hengel's Judaism and Hellenism as
perhaps one of the best and most accessible.

No it wouldn't. The primary and secondary historical texts at the best
and most accessible sources. Martin Hengel PERSONAL OPINION has no
historical validity whatsoever. He was not a primary witness not had he
spoke to primary witnesses like for example Herodotus does or Eusebius
knows.

Your opinion about what the primary texts say is of even less interest.

I am not giving an opinion. I am reporting and correlating precisely what
the texts say, which is the job of a historian, and they are abundantly
clear in what they say.

[Larry Swain]

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Larry Swain

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Larry Swain

Post by Dom
Is there any validity to the following, which was posted by
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.history.ancient/msg/d99e4b6a9deec2f0?
=================
There were no such things a Orthodox Jews at the time of the
Maccabbees. Orthodox Judaism was invented in the middle ages. At the
time of the Maccabbees the Jews were polytheistic and always hade been
and two main factions of Jews dominated both of which wanted to
control the temple. One faction worshiped Baal Shamen who they
identified with Zeus (who was also syncretised with Zeus Belus or
Dushara in Arabic, the son of El) whereas another faction worshiped
Elyon his father who was syncretised with El (Alohi in Hebrew or Allah
in Arabic and referred to as Orotalt by Herodotus) who was identified
by the Jews with Dionysus.
The Jews who worshiped Dionysus El Elyon were allied with the
Ptolemaic Egyptians and were admitted into the mysteries and branded
with the Ivy Leaf symbol of Dionysus. Those that supported the claim
of Zeus Baal Shamen to the temple worshiped were allied with the
Seleucids. The temple was in fact original the temple of Elyon and
Judas Maccabbee led the Jews that worshiped Dionysus to retake if from
those that wanted to worship Baal Shamen there instead. From the First
Book of Maccabbees we know that when Judas finally capture the temple
he celebrated by worshiping Elyon by waving wands covered with ivy,
which of course was the Thyrsus as carried by Dionysus and his
followers.

Its posted by Agamemnon, that should answer your question.
There are several good works that cover this period and would answer
your question. I'd recommend Martin Hengel's Judaism and Hellenism
as perhaps one of the best and most accessible.

No it wouldn't. The primary and secondary historical texts at the
best and most accessible sources. Martin Hengel PERSONAL OPINION has
no historical validity whatsoever. He was not a primary witness not
had he spoke to primary witnesses like for example Herodotus does or
Eusebius knows.

Your opinion about what the primary texts say is of even less interest.

I am not giving an opinion. I am reporting and correlating precisely
what the texts say,

Uh, no, nowhere does any text say that Judas Maccabeus worshipped
Dionysius or that he was fighting a faction of fellow Jews who
worshipped a different god, but rather the Seleucid empire, ruled by
Greeks. Oh well, so much for reporting and correlating precisely what
the texts say, but that's par for the course with you anyway.

which is the job of a historian, and they are

Post by Agamemnon
abundantly clear in what they say.

Indeed, and one wonders why you go to such lengths to make them say
something else.

[Agamemnon]

Post by Larry Swain

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Larry Swain

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Larry Swain

Post by Dom
Is there any validity to the following, which was posted by
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.history.ancient/msg/d99e4b6a9deec2f0?
=================
There were no such things a Orthodox Jews at the time of the
Maccabbees. Orthodox Judaism was invented in the middle ages. At the
time of the Maccabbees the Jews were polytheistic and always hade been
and two main factions of Jews dominated both of which wanted to
control the temple. One faction worshiped Baal Shamen who they
identified with Zeus (who was also syncretised with Zeus Belus or
Dushara in Arabic, the son of El) whereas another faction worshiped
Elyon his father who was syncretised with El (Alohi in Hebrew or Allah
in Arabic and referred to as Orotalt by Herodotus) who was identified
by the Jews with Dionysus.
The Jews who worshiped Dionysus El Elyon were allied with the
Ptolemaic Egyptians and were admitted into the mysteries and branded
with the Ivy Leaf symbol of Dionysus. Those that supported the claim
of Zeus Baal Shamen to the temple worshiped were allied with the
Seleucids. The temple was in fact original the temple of Elyon and
Judas Maccabbee led the Jews that worshiped Dionysus to retake if from
those that wanted to worship Baal Shamen there instead. From the First
Book of Maccabbees we know that when Judas finally capture the temple
he celebrated by worshiping Elyon by waving wands covered with ivy,
which of course was the Thyrsus as carried by Dionysus and his
followers.

Its posted by Agamemnon, that should answer your question.
There are several good works that cover this period and would answer
your question. I'd recommend Martin Hengel's Judaism and Hellenism as
perhaps one of the best and most accessible.

No it wouldn't. The primary and secondary historical texts at the best
and most accessible sources. Martin Hengel PERSONAL OPINION has no
historical validity whatsoever. He was not a primary witness not had he
spoke to primary witnesses like for example Herodotus does or Eusebius
knows.

Your opinion about what the primary texts say is of even less interest.

I am not giving an opinion. I am reporting and correlating precisely what
the texts say,

Uh, no, nowhere does any text say that Judas Maccabeus worshipped
Dionysius or that he was fighting a faction of fellow Jews who

Curr hum... yes it does. The Second Book of Maccabbees makes it clear the
Jews were the only other people except the Greeks who were initiated into
the Mysteries of Dionysus and marked with his ivy leaf symbol. Herodotus
makes it clear that the Arabs, who as we know are descended from Ishmael
worshiped only 2 Gods, Orotalt, ie. Allah or El who he says was Dionysus and
Alilat, aka. Alat or Anat who he says was Aphrodite Urania. The First book
of Maccabbees also makes it clear that when he captured the temple of El
Elyon who was identified with Dionysus he worshiped this God by waving
around ivy clad wands which is how Dionysus was worshiped.

Post by Larry Swain
worshipped a different god, but rather the Seleucid empire, ruled by

WRONG. The First book of Maccabbees makes it abundanly clear that the
Selucides redicated the temple of El Elyon to Zeus Baal Shamun or Epigeius
who was also identfied with Uranus by Philo. There were clearly two factions
of Jews that wanted to control the temple, one of which worshiped Zeus Baal
Shamun and the other which worshiped Dionysus El Elyon. Those that worshiped
Dionysus El Elyon were allied with the Egyptians and initiated into the
Mysteries of Dionysus since the Seconed book of Maccabbees makes states that
the Jewish form of worship at their temple resembled that of Dionysus. Those
that worshiped Zeus Baal Shamun were alied to the Selucids. The First book
of Maccabbees makes it clear that Judas Maccabbee worshiped both El Elyon
and Baal Shamun who is referenced in the original Greek as Ouranos who Judas
raises his arms to in the manner the Greeks used when worshiping Zeus when
he prays for victory in his early battles.

Post by Larry Swain
Greeks. Oh well, so much for reporting and correlating precisely what the
texts say, but that's par for the course with you anyway.
which is the job of a historian, and they are

Post by Agamemnon
abundantly clear in what they say.

Indeed, and one wonders why you go to such lengths to make them say
something else.

I am stating exactly what the texts say. The Jews worshiped Dionysus along
with other Gods. Get used to it. The Jewish religion we know today was
invented after Titus destroyed their temple and the Jews merged all of their
Gods into one.

[Larry Swain]

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Larry Swain

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Larry Swain

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Larry Swain

Post by Dom
Is there any validity to the following, which was posted by
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.history.ancient/msg/d99e4b6a9deec2f0?
=================
There were no such things a Orthodox Jews at the time of the
Maccabbees. Orthodox Judaism was invented in the middle ages. At the
time of the Maccabbees the Jews were polytheistic and always hade been
and two main factions of Jews dominated both of which wanted to
control the temple. One faction worshiped Baal Shamen who they
identified with Zeus (who was also syncretised with Zeus Belus or
Dushara in Arabic, the son of El) whereas another faction worshiped
Elyon his father who was syncretised with El (Alohi in Hebrew or Allah
in Arabic and referred to as Orotalt by Herodotus) who was identified
by the Jews with Dionysus.
The Jews who worshiped Dionysus El Elyon were allied with the
Ptolemaic Egyptians and were admitted into the mysteries and branded
with the Ivy Leaf symbol of Dionysus. Those that supported the claim
of Zeus Baal Shamen to the temple worshiped were allied with the
Seleucids. The temple was in fact original the temple of Elyon and
Judas Maccabbee led the Jews that worshiped Dionysus to retake if from
those that wanted to worship Baal Shamen there instead. From the First
Book of Maccabbees we know that when Judas finally capture the temple
he celebrated by worshiping Elyon by waving wands covered with ivy,
which of course was the Thyrsus as carried by Dionysus and his
followers.

Its posted by Agamemnon, that should answer your question.
There are several good works that cover this period and would
answer your question. I'd recommend Martin Hengel's Judaism and
Hellenism as perhaps one of the best and most accessible.

No it wouldn't. The primary and secondary historical texts at the
best and most accessible sources. Martin Hengel PERSONAL OPINION
has no historical validity whatsoever. He was not a primary witness
not had he spoke to primary witnesses like for example Herodotus
does or Eusebius knows.

Your opinion about what the primary texts say is of even less interest.

I am not giving an opinion. I am reporting and correlating precisely
what the texts say,

Uh, no, nowhere does any text say that Judas Maccabeus worshipped
Dionysius or that he was fighting a faction of fellow Jews who

Curr hum... yes it does.

Nope, no such text, no name of Dionysius as a worshipped deity exists in
a text talking about Judas Maccabeus.

The Second Book of Maccabbees makes it clear

Post by Agamemnon
the Jews were the only other people except the Greeks who were initiated
into the Mysteries of Dionysus and marked with his ivy leaf symbol.

No it doesn't. There's nothing in the book about the Mysteries of
Dionysius.

Post by Agamemnon
Herodotus makes it clear that the Arabs, who as we know are descended
from Ishmael worshiped only 2 Gods,

We actually don't know that the Arabs are descended from "Ishmael",
that's what the Bible claims, and like most ancient documents, peoples
and ethnicities were thought to have a "founder", but that isn't how the
real world works. You're also presuming that Herodotus got it right (he
didn't, he even confused a name and title as two different names!) and
that his claim that all the peoples of the ancient Mediterranean
worshipped the Greek gods just under different names. They didn't.
That's a cultural claim of hegemony, but it doesn't in point of fact
happen to be true.

Orotalt, ie. Allah or El who he says

So tell us: in what Greek mythological text is Dionysius believed to
have founded the world or held sway over the other gods, i. e. in the
role of Zeus?

Post by Agamemnon
was Dionysus and Alilat, aka. Alat or Anat who he says was Aphrodite
Urania.

Which again begs the question of whether he got it right.

The First book of Maccabbees also makes it clear that when he

Post by Agamemnon
captured the temple of El Elyon who was identified with Dionysus he
worshiped this God by waving around ivy clad wands which is how Dionysus
was worshiped.

So? It also makes clear that they sang songs in worship, just like
worshippers of Odin, does this mean that they worshipped the Norse gods
too? Oh wait, Odin is Dionysius too......

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Larry Swain
worshipped a different god, but rather the Seleucid empire, ruled by

WRONG.

RIGHT.

The First book of Maccabbees makes it abundanly clear that the

Post by Agamemnon
Selucides redicated the temple of El Elyon to Zeus Baal Shamun or
Epigeius who was also identfied with Uranus by Philo.

Since the claim that I contended was your claim that the Jews of the
Maccabeans period were polytheistic and worshipped Dionysius, it really
matters very little what the Seleucids worshipped or to whom they
dedicated a captured temple.

There were clearly

Post by Agamemnon
two factions of Jews

Oh, more than that!

that wanted to control the temple, one of which

Post by Agamemnon
worshiped Zeus Baal Shamun

Nope

and the other which worshiped Dionysus El

Post by Agamemnon
Elyon.

And again, no.

Those that worshiped Dionysus El Elyon were allied with the

Post by Agamemnon
Egyptians and initiated into the Mysteries of Dionysus since the Seconed
book of Maccabbees makes states that the Jewish form of worship at their
temple resembled that of Dionysus.

Interestingly enough, forms of worship between various cults are very
similar the world over. Wands with ivy leaves are known all over the
world, but it doesn't mean that Africans in Somalia worshipped Dionysius.

Those that worshiped Zeus Baal Shamun

Post by Agamemnon
were alied to the Selucids. The First book of Maccabbees makes it clear
that Judas Maccabbee worshiped both El Elyon and Baal Shamun who is
referenced in the original Greek as Ouranos who Judas raises his arms to
in the manner the Greeks used when worshiping Zeus when he prays for
victory in his early battles.

And as the Assyrians did, and as the Babylonians did, and the Persians,
and the Egyptians, all long before the Greeks exported their culture.
Sorry, you jump to conclusions that the evidence does not sustain.
Course, that's typical of your positions.

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Larry Swain
Greeks. Oh well, so much for reporting and correlating precisely what
the texts say, but that's par for the course with you anyway.
which is the job of a historian, and they are

Post by Agamemnon
abundantly clear in what they say.

Indeed, and one wonders why you go to such lengths to make them say
something else.

I am stating exactly what the texts say.

No, actually you're reading into the texts what you want and then
presenting that as if it were what the texts said. Big difference.

The Jews worshiped Dionysus

Post by Agamemnon
along with other Gods.

Nope.

Get used to it.

What I am used to is your typical procedure of getting it all wrong by
reading into texts with your special goggles (I suspect that you put the
text in a hat and look into it, read it aloud while someone sits near by
and transcribes your oracles and then post them here).

Post by Agamemnon
The Jewish religion we know today
was invented after Titus destroyed their temple

No...transformed certainly, as with all such catestrophic events, what
comes after has a great deal of continuity but also a great deal of
disontinuity with the past, and so Judaism developed and evolved, but
not invented.


and the Jews merged all

Post by Agamemnon
of their Gods into one.

Nope. Even the NT disproves this claim, much less all those pre-Titus
Greco-Roman writers who describe the Jews as worhipping only one
divinity. Guess they were all wrong cause the great Agamemnon looked in
his hat with his magic goggles and declared it so. There's no
convincing the true believers like y ourself. YOu can have the last
word again, I read your post because I wasn't paying attention. Dom, if
you're reading, take a look at the book I suggested, and I can suggest
more if you wish.

[Agamemnon]

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Larry Swain

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Larry Swain

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Larry Swain

Post by Dom
Is there any validity to the following, which was posted by
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.history.ancient/msg/d99e4b6a9deec2f0?
=================
There were no such things a Orthodox Jews at the time of the
Maccabbees. Orthodox Judaism was invented in the middle ages. At the
time of the Maccabbees the Jews were polytheistic and always hade been
and two main factions of Jews dominated both of which wanted to
control the temple. One faction worshiped Baal Shamen who they
identified with Zeus (who was also syncretised with Zeus Belus or
Dushara in Arabic, the son of El) whereas another faction worshiped
Elyon his father who was syncretised with El (Alohi in Hebrew or Allah
in Arabic and referred to as Orotalt by Herodotus) who was identified
by the Jews with Dionysus.
The Jews who worshiped Dionysus El Elyon were allied with the
Ptolemaic Egyptians and were admitted into the mysteries and branded
with the Ivy Leaf symbol of Dionysus. Those that supported the claim
of Zeus Baal Shamen to the temple worshiped were allied with the
Seleucids. The temple was in fact original the temple of Elyon and
Judas Maccabbee led the Jews that worshiped Dionysus to retake if from
those that wanted to worship Baal Shamen there instead. From the First
Book of Maccabbees we know that when Judas finally capture the temple
he celebrated by worshiping Elyon by waving wands covered with ivy,
which of course was the Thyrsus as carried by Dionysus and his
followers.

Its posted by Agamemnon, that should answer your question.
There are several good works that cover this period and would answer
your question. I'd recommend Martin Hengel's Judaism and Hellenism
as perhaps one of the best and most accessible.

No it wouldn't. The primary and secondary historical texts at the
best and most accessible sources. Martin Hengel PERSONAL OPINION has
no historical validity whatsoever. He was not a primary witness not
had he spoke to primary witnesses like for example Herodotus does or
Eusebius knows.

Your opinion about what the primary texts say is of even less interest.

I am not giving an opinion. I am reporting and correlating precisely
what the texts say,

Uh, no, nowhere does any text say that Judas Maccabeus worshipped
Dionysius or that he was fighting a faction of fellow Jews who

Curr hum... yes it does.

Nope, no such text, no name of Dionysius as a worshipped deity exists in a
text talking about Judas Maccabeus.

You've not read Maccabbees then. Read it.

The Second Book of Maccabbees makes it clear

Post by Agamemnon
the Jews were the only other people except the Greeks who were initiated
into the Mysteries of Dionysus and marked with his ivy leaf symbol.

No it doesn't. There's nothing in the book about the Mysteries of
Dionysius.

You've not read Maccabbees 2 then. Read it.

Post by Agamemnon
Herodotus makes it clear that the Arabs, who as we know are descended
from Ishmael worshiped only 2 Gods,

We actually don't know that the Arabs are descended from "Ishmael", that's
what the Bible claims, and like most ancient documents, peoples and
ethnicities were thought to have a "founder", but that isn't how the real
world works. You're also presuming that Herodotus got it right (he
didn't, he even confused a name and title as two different names!) and

He did nothing of the kind.

that his claim that all the peoples of the ancient Mediterranean
worshipped the Greek gods just under different names. They didn't.

He made no such claim. Clearly you have not read Herodotus either but other
peoples most wrong personal opinions, who have probably not read Herodotus
either.

Herodotus sated that the names of most of the Greek Gods came from Egypt and
that is where their cults came from apart from Poseidon whose cult came from
Libya and Herakles which was based on the Phoenician cult of Melkarthrus,
and a few others. He also states that even before this arrival the Pelasgian
Greeks still know the names of the Gods but did not know them as they do now
since they did not know how to worship them properly.

That's a cultural claim of hegemony, but it doesn't in point of fact
happen to be true.
Orotalt, ie. Allah or El who he says
So tell us: in what Greek mythological text is Dionysius believed to have
founded the world or held sway over the other gods, i. e. in the role of
Zeus?

In the Orphic Cult of Phanes-Dionysus and the Mystery Cult of the Kabiroi.

Phanes was the father of Nyx who was the mother of Uranus.

Post by Agamemnon
was Dionysus and Alilat, aka. Alat or Anat who he says was Aphrodite
Urania.

Which again begs the question of whether he got it right.
The First book of Maccabbees also makes it clear that when he

Post by Agamemnon
captured the temple of El Elyon who was identified with Dionysus he
worshiped this God by waving around ivy clad wands which is how Dionysus
was worshiped.

So? It also makes clear that they sang songs in worship, just like
worshippers of Odin, does this mean that they worshipped the Norse gods
too? Oh wait, Odin is Dionysius too......

FOOL! If you were familar with the Dionysus cult you would know that his
worshiper banged cymbals and played music and sang songs as describbed in
Maccabbees. It was the worship of Dionysus which evolved into competitions
in music, poetry and drama.

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Larry Swain
worshipped a different god, but rather the Seleucid empire, ruled by

WRONG.

RIGHT.

WRONG.

The First book of Maccabbees makes it abundanly clear that the

Post by Agamemnon
Selucides redicated the temple of El Elyon to Zeus Baal Shamun or
Epigeius who was also identfied with Uranus by Philo.

Since the claim that I contended was your claim that the Jews of the
Maccabeans period were polytheistic and worshipped Dionysius, it really
matters very little what the Seleucids worshipped or to whom they
dedicated a captured temple.

WRONG. Half the Jews accepted the worship of Zeus Baal Shamun in the temple.
They were clearly polytheistic.

There were clearly

Post by Agamemnon
two factions of Jews

Oh, more than that!
that wanted to control the temple, one of which

Post by Agamemnon
worshiped Zeus Baal Shamun

Nope

Yes.

and the other which worshiped Dionysus El

Post by Agamemnon
Elyon.

And again, no.

And again, Yes.

Those that worshiped Dionysus El Elyon were allied with the

Post by Agamemnon
Egyptians and initiated into the Mysteries of Dionysus since the Seconed
book of Maccabbees makes states that the Jewish form of worship at their
temple resembled that of Dionysus.

Interestingly enough, forms of worship between various cults are very
similar the world over. Wands with ivy leaves are known all over the
world, but it doesn't mean that Africans in Somalia worshipped Dionysius.

FOOL! Somalia you idiot was ruled by the Ancient Greeks and before them the
Egyptians. The Somali worship is that of Dionysus because the Greek
introduced it there and before that the Egyptians introduced the cult of
Osiris which is where the rituals of the Dionysus cult were exported to the
Greeks in the first place.

Those that worshiped Zeus Baal Shamun

Post by Agamemnon
were alied to the Selucids. The First book of Maccabbees makes it clear
that Judas Maccabbee worshiped both El Elyon and Baal Shamun who is
referenced in the original Greek as Ouranos who Judas raises his arms to
in the manner the Greeks used when worshiping Zeus when he prays for
victory in his early battles.

And as the Assyrians did, and as the Babylonians did, and the Persians,
and the Egyptians,

BUT NOT THE JEWS as we know them today.

all long before the Greeks exported their culture. Sorry, you jump to
conclusions that the evidence does not sustain. Course, that's typical of
your positions.

FOOL!

The evidence shows that the Jews were engaging in the worship of Uranus or
whoever the local Sky God was. The Sky God be he Zeus or Uranus or Baal
Shamun was the only God worshiped in that manner.

Post by Agamemnon

Post by Larry Swain
Greeks. Oh well, so much for reporting and correlating precisely what
the texts say, but that's par for the course with you anyway.
which is the job of a historian, and they are

Post by Agamemnon
abundantly clear in what they say.

Indeed, and one wonders why you go to such lengths to make them say
something else.

I am stating exactly what the texts say.

No, actually you're reading into the texts what you want and then
presenting that as if it were what the texts said. Big difference.

I am stating exactly what the texts say.

The Jews worshiped Dionysus

Post by Agamemnon
along with other Gods.

Nope.

Yep.

Get used to it.
What I am used to is your typical procedure of getting it all wrong by
reading into texts with your special goggles (I suspect that you put the
text in a hat and look into it, read it aloud while someone sits near by
and transcribes your oracles and then post them here).

FOOL! I have stated exactly what the texts say and describe. You have
obviously not read them yourself so you are deluded.

Post by Agamemnon
The Jewish religion we know today was invented after Titus destroyed
their temple

No...transformed certainly, as with all such catestrophic events, what
comes after has a great deal of continuity but also a great deal of
disontinuity with the past, and so Judaism developed and evolved, but not
invented.

Invented. The Jews were polytheists, Jerusalem was a polytheistic city. Even
while the temple of El Elyon still stood there were temples to other Gods in
Jerusalem included the temple of Astarte which was built on its summit.

and the Jews merged all

Post by Agamemnon
of their Gods into one.

Nope. Even the NT disproves this claim, much less all those pre-Titus

And how is that?

Greco-Roman writers who describe the Jews as worhipping only one divinity.

FOOL! There are NO Greco-Roman writers who even mention the Jews until
Christian times. Tacitus is the earliest we have the original texts of.
Everything else is from Jewish historians written after 70 AD and cannot be
trusted. The Jews are not even mentioned by Herodotus among the tributary
states of Darius or as part of the armies of Xerxes, whereas everyone else
in the know world is named.

Guess they were all wrong cause the great Agamemnon looked in his hat with
his magic goggles and declared it so. There's no convincing the true
believers like y ourself. YOu can have the last word again, I read your
post because I wasn't paying attention. Dom, if you're reading, take a
look at the book I suggested, and I can suggest more if you wish.

Keep your revisionist texts to yourself. It is clear your learned nothing of
any historical value from them.

Only the original primary and secondary ancient texts are valid in this
debate.

[Matt Giwer]

...

Post by Larry Swain

Post by Agamemnon
No it wouldn't. The primary and secondary historical texts at the best
and most accessible sources. Martin Hengel PERSONAL OPINION has no
historical validity whatsoever. He was not a primary witness not had
he spoke to primary witnesses like for example Herodotus does or
Eusebius knows.

Your opinion about what the primary texts say is of even less interest.

What they say and an opinion of what they say are two different things. Read
the description of the Maccabe worship ceremony. They are nothing like what you
would expect from either the OT or NT descriptions of the religion. The books
are not canonical for a reason and that is a very good one. But they have more
confirmation than any of the others even if it is only a single coin.

Aggie does report what they say. Our disagreement is that he extrapolates with
too much specificity. There is no disagreement that he starts from what they do
say.

The original book Dianetics had nothing to do with a religion. I only say
original as I only read the original. It may have been revised. It was
definitely not Scientology. It was simply using one of the three things measured
by lie detectors to detect stress and eliminating that stress. Its claims were
no worse than any self-help book published before or since and no worse than
psychoanalysis talk-your-way-to-mental-health con game of ALL Freudians
including Freud.

All that said, look how quickly it came from an odd book to a religion
recognized by the US government in an entirely different form.

Why would you think something less dramatic could not occur in the past?
Mohamed created a religion and did not even write the book. Joseph Smith did
write a book and did create a religion. Clearly Judaism was invented and the onl
approximately secular version of events at the time of the Maccabes does not
present a religion recognizable as the Judaism of today.

Why would you think it could not happen? Why would you dismiss anything that
does not assume it did not happen? What physical evidence do you have for this
dismissal?

We have Scientology and the Latter Day Saints both happening in less than a
generation. We do have Islam spreading in less than a generation but the Koran
does not appear until a century after the death of Mohamed so the analogy is not
exact. There are many other examples. Mary Baker Eddy. Martin Luther. Calvin.
Henry VIII. Gnostics. And those are just the ones that have been around along
time and it is far from exhaustive. There are a shitload that didn't make it
like the Albigensians and a mess more I have not the preparation to begin to
list. Tell me why you insist Judaism has to have been different.

[Matt Giwer]

Larry Swain wrote:
...

Post by Larry Swain
Its posted by Agamemnon, that should answer your question.
There are several good works that cover this period and would answer
your question. I'd recommend Martin Hengel's Judaism and Hellenism as
perhaps one of the best and most accessible.

The only rational advice is to read people who do not start with the
supposition that there is anything about bibleland and who have preferably never
bothered to look into the monotheistic mythology of the west.

That means people who will take the physical evidence for what it is and as
nothing more.

What that means is nothing has been found in all the digs in bibleland to
support the existence of this religion. Not one single thing. It is all based
upon the Septuagint, Josephus and a few mentions in the civil record and a few
passages in the highly redacted and embellished gospels.

Someone who never bothered with western mythology would give no more credence
to the religious sources than he would the writings of any other religion.

It is instructive to look at exactly and only what is mentioned about Judaism
in the gospels and find it is only vaguely recognizable. Not even the the god of
the temple is named. For example, we can conclude this temple practiced
circumcision. There is no explanation for WHY he at the temple for the story
about discoursing with the priests, no mention of a Bar Mitzvah. There is no
mention of a Mikvah. Today a man is not a Jew unless he has all three. The
Jewish people are a recent invention of the Zionists.

[Matt Giwer]

Post by Larry Swain
There are several good works that cover this period and would answer
your question. I'd recommend Martin Hengel's Judaism and Hellenism as
perhaps one of the best and most accessible.

Opinions are like elbows. Everyone has at least two of them.

That is my first and last contribution to G-rating this newsgroup.

[Matt Giwer]

Post by Dom
Is there any validity to the following, which was posted by
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.history.ancient/msg/d99e4b6a9deec2f0?
=================
There were no such things a Orthodox Jews at the time of the
Maccabbees. Orthodox Judaism was invented in the middle ages.

There is a bit of terminology problem. Our term Orthodox was only invented
after Jews started leaving the ghettos in the 19th c. and began modernizing the
religion. But from what follows it appears he is referring to the codification
as a monotheistic religion as did Christianity after Mohamed was the first to
make an unambiguous declaration of monotheism.

Post by Dom
At the
time of the Maccabbees the Jews were polytheistic and always hade been
and two main factions of Jews dominated both of which wanted to
control the temple. One faction worshiped Baal Shamen who they
identified with Zeus (who was also syncretised with Zeus Belus or
Dushara in Arabic, the son of El) whereas another faction worshiped
Elyon his father who was syncretised with El (Alohi in Hebrew or Allah
in Arabic and referred to as Orotalt by Herodotus) who was identified
by the Jews with Dionysus.

Even JEWS admit they were polytheists at one time. They only debate when
Ashara/Astarte was dropped as the other major god of their religion. At the
moment they appear to be willing to admit it disappeared some time before the
2nd c. BC but was common prior to that century. However there is very good
reason to believe her worship was alive and well and had a temple in Jerusalem
until it was torn down by the Romans after the bar Kokbah revolt. There is
little evidence to suggest what happened between then and when a declared
monotheistic Judaism appeared. Some have said she is still worshiped in Kaballah
Judaism.

Post by Dom
The Jews who worshiped Dionysus El Elyon were allied with the
Ptolemaic Egyptians and were admitted into the mysteries and branded
with the Ivy Leaf symbol of Dionysus. Those that supported the claim
of Zeus Baal Shamen to the temple worshiped were allied with the
Seleucids. The temple was in fact original the temple of Elyon and
Judas Maccabbee led the Jews that worshiped Dionysus to retake if from
those that wanted to worship Baal Shamen there instead. From the First
Book of Maccabbees we know that when Judas finally capture the temple
he celebrated by worshiping Elyon by waving wands covered with ivy,
which of course was the Thyrsus as carried by Dionysus and his
followers.

We have agreed to disagree on being this specific but we agree it was clearly
not the Yahweh cult we see today. But given the description found in Maccabes
that is a reasonable description of it. That they would later create a
"wahabist" version for the common folk to justify massive oppression that we
call the Septuagint is certainly not precluded by any physical evidence.

However the entire "veracity" of the Maccabe story has only a single coin as
physical evidence. That coin has an image of a person who is identified as the
grandson of Judah Maccabe. And that is it. Not a single mention of the story
exists outside of these two versions of the same events.

And there is no physical evidence of any religion like that in the Septuagint
found any place in bibleland prior to the 1st c. BC.